Now I know why so many look to a used motor

UtahSleeper

Active member
Being a noob to engine work and actual rebuilding I went to a machine shop today to get an idea on prices.

For the block, with all proper cleaning/honing/etc it seems like it runs about 200.
Work on the crank was somewhere between 100 and 200 depending on if grinding was needed.

So, it's potentially 400 just to get those items prepped and ready for rebuild.

What has other peoples experience been on deciding rebuild vs used motor?
 

88gt4DE

Active member
Rebuilt 165 motor fresh once ... roughly 3 grand. Had to replace head and re-do top end this past year thanks to a TVIS screw that came out. Spend roughly 1800 to do that. If it comes apart again I'm going to a 205 swap. I will never rebuild this 165 motor again ...
 

brutekiller787

New member
Go to unoh like me and a rebuild costs parts and gets you a's. Milled head and block for flatness and rehoned cylinders. Ported and port matched myself and good to go
 

underscore

Well-known member
With a rebuild though, assuming you do things right, you've got a brand new engine. Buying a used one you could be buying something not much better than what you're replacing, so you need to be careful.
 

UtahSleeper

Active member
Yea. I would like to rebuild and I will do the math and see what the cost is.

My goal was to try and get her running by this fall/winter. But I also want to get it running with megasquirt so I can remove the MAF and get better performance and MPG out of the motor.

So, need to do the math and see what I want to do. I am still planning on the rebuild............but I can't say I wouldn't consider a cheap motor locally if one showed up lol.

Thought it would be expensive, but guess it had never quite sunk in till I actually spoke to the shop.
 

brutekiller787

New member
That's pretty much what I want. 350whp for the street with good mileage off boost. A rebuild doesn't cost much if you have access to machines.
 

UtahSleeper

Active member
brutekiller787":1drfbfzr said:
That's pretty much what I want. 350whp for the street with good mileage off boost. A rebuild doesn't cost much if you have access to machines.

Wish I did :/ Right now, if I rebuild, all machine work will be done by someone and then I would be assembling.

If I was looking for big power then there would be no question, I would be rebuilding. But since I would be happy to winter drive my trac with a standalone and a few bolt ons, the frugal side of me is coming out lol.

Guess I will start saving money and see where things take me.

So has everyone else always just picked to rebuild/go used? Or has it always just been based on your power goals.
 

lumbercis

Moderator
I'll come down on the other side of the equation and say that a low mileage gen3 swap is your best bang for buck. Anecdotally, I've noticed a lot of people reporting problems with their rebuilt motors from supposedly good/experienced machine shops. There's just so many things that have to go perfectly to get a lot of reliability out of a rebuilt motor that I'm not comfortable chancing it unless the rebuilder is nationally known as the best in the biz. If I was going to do a rebuilt motor I'd just purchase a short block from someone like ATS that has experience and even then cross my fingers that they didn't screw up a tolerance or something during the rebuild. I just don't think you can beat a factory assembled engine for reliability.

That said, the big problem with an engine swap is being able to verify that your "low mileage" engine is actually low mileage. A lot of the engines you see for sale on ebay claim low mileage but you really have no way to verify that. I'd hunt around for an engine seller that includes the gauge cluster of the engine in question so you can verify mileage. Almost no ebay sellers will have the gauge cluster with the engine but if you ask around on mr2oc you might be able to get a reference to a good importer that can provide the gauge cluster with the engine so you know you're getting a low mileage engine as advertised.

Either way you go, be careful, ask about warranties, and don't trust anyone! :smokes:
 

underscore

Well-known member
^ better still, get a halfcut and freshen it up yourself (ie all new gaskets, hoses, and maintenance items). All the parts you need plus some to sell, including the correct cluster.
 

brutekiller787

New member
I feel like if you are the one doing the machining like I was, you can feel pretty confident when putting it back together and running it. There's always that worry though, swap or rebuild.
 

Pipedreams

New member
Another problem with a swap is that the last 3sgte is from 1999. That´s 15 years ago. And if you get a gen2 that´s atleast 21years old and underbonnet heat on those cars is harsch on the rubber in any gasket or seal. So it´s very likely to have oil leaking here and there. So I would recomend tearing it down anyway and replace all gaskets.
 

Locker

Member
IMO opinion if your not going for BIG power the st205 swap makes the most sense. Buying a half cut is also the best way to go ensuring you get all the sensors etc and knowing exactly how many k's the motor has on it. You spend more money initially on the half cut but you also get the added bonus of being able to sell a bunch of great parts to re-coup your costs.
 

Mafix

New member
rebuilding is the way to go. although, I had another motor to rebuild while I drove around on the stockish one. now I have a bulletproof engine. know your machinist...fyi.
 

brutekiller787

New member
Pipedreams":193ql1st said:
Another problem with a swap is that the last 3sgte is from 1999. That´s 15 years ago. And if you get a gen2 that´s atleast 21years old and underbonnet heat on those cars is harsch on the rubber in any gasket or seal. So it´s very likely to have oil leaking here and there. So I would recomend tearing it down anyway and replace all gaskets.


And at that point if there is no cylinder damage run a flex hone through it and put a $340 full rebuild kit like I did. That's why you should check out your own head and block before you just blow big money on a half cut.

Includes all gaskets, oil pump, water pump, timing belt kit, new pistons, rings and all bearings. Can't beat it seriously.
 

CSAlltrac

New member
Lumbercis said it best. Nothing beats a factory assembled engine. Save a million headaches and go 205 swap, fresh head gasket W/ ARP, fresh hoses, water pump, and timing belt. Then enjoy for a very long time.
 

brutekiller787

New member
CSAlltrac":3ta5yske said:
Lumbercis said it best. Nothing beats a factory assembled engine. Save a million headaches and go 205 swap, fresh head gasket W/ ARP, fresh hoses, water pump, and timing belt. Then enjoy for a very long time.

Again, if you are in there for the timing belt and head gasket, why not just put new pistons in too? What is so great about a factory assembled engine? Especially with mileage on it? If you can properly torque a head gasket you can build a motor.

Swaps are a cop out if you ask me. The money you put into a swap can be spent in much better places, like an ems. How much is spent on a swap, 2000 to 2500 for a clip? For that you can still do your machine work, rebuild the motor with brand new parts, get mega squirt pnp, injectors and a fuel pumpand make more than a 205 swap and still delete the AFM.

Don't be lazy, you will have a much more intimate knowledge of what you are doing afterward, instead of just falling into the mindset of "if it's bad, replace it.
 

UtahSleeper

Active member
CSAlltrac":xyodmjiy said:
Lumbercis said it best. Nothing beats a factory assembled engine. Save a million headaches and go 205 swap, fresh head gasket W/ ARP, fresh hoses, water pump, and timing belt. Then enjoy for a very long time.

I will be doing my research before deciding anything, but I am sure I wont be going a st205 motor only cause parts availability is going to be less here. Plus, are there many cheap options for a side feed on the st205? While my plans are to winter drive my trac I would like to know that most parts should be reasonably attained locally and/or cheaply in case the car ever gets put to DD duty for any reason. Or do the 205's share a lot of parts as the 185 and 165 engines?

Right now I am considering getting the kit brute used, 3sge cams(since my head is a first gen) and rebuild the motor myself.

One reason I am still throwing around a used motor is cause I also plan on going standalone............and it make me uneasy to take a fresh motor and then try and get it running and tuned when it should be getting broke in lol.
 

brutekiller787

New member
The only "cheap" side feed for a 205 is a 215 and they aren't cheap or easy to find. Almost everything on a 205 isn't compatible with a 165 especially. Ge cams are a good choice but don't give you much but a few HP is better than nothing. Retarding the exhaust cam will get you more than that, 6 degrees I think the consensus is?

Tuning on a new motor shouldn't be done I agree. Put it together stock, break it in, then start tuning.
 

underscore

Well-known member
Why are you bothering with a standalone anyways? What are your power goals? If you're going to be bumping up the power much you'll want to upgrade the internals of whichever motor you go with. If you're going to stay with stockish power levels IMO a standalone is a waste of money.

CSAlltrac":ao2rr8dg said:
Lumbercis said it best. Nothing beats a factory assembled engine. Save a million headaches and go 205 swap, fresh head gasket W/ ARP, fresh hoses, water pump, and timing belt. Then enjoy for a very long time.

If you're getting down to a new headgasket you should be getting the block and head surfaces checked anyways, at which point there's not much left still factory assembled. I would hate the have the engine down to a block with a rotating assembly and an assembled head, only to spin a bearing or something shortly after reassembly.
 

UtahSleeper

Active member
underscore":u3edrkzy said:
Why are you bothering with a standalone anyways? What are your power goals? If you're going to be bumping up the power much you'll want to upgrade the internals of whichever motor you go with. If you're going to stay with stockish power levels IMO a standalone is a waste of money.

Because the 165 and 185 ECU's suck royally and I like the idea of having a great reason to redo the engine harness since the stock ones are pretty cooked by now. From what I have read you can get some decent power gains and better MPG just by getting rid of the air blocking MAF and a good tune. Is my knowledge wrong that the tunes on the 165's weren't very good?

And MS3's are reasonably cheap and easy to assemble. I have a MS2 in my 80 Corolla and love the options I can mess with, plus not having a distributor is nice to.

My power goals are 300 if I am lucky, but I would like to be prepared if that changes also lol. 300 would just be a number and not really a concern. I know I liked the 190/200 the 165 put down, but as with most car people, I did want more lol. I just plan to build, drive during winters and add parts for more fast lol.

And guess I will have to do more research on the cam thing. I want to keep most of what I do limited to bolt on, so the cams were kind of an after thought anyway lol.
 
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