Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Suspension and other discussion

Re: Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Postby bajallama » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:48 pm

athousandleaves wrote:For the record - we need to protect the vendors on this forum and as such can not allow people to sell products that they produce on this forum without having them support the forum. This rule is present in MANY other forums so it should not be foreign to you. Some forums won't even allow members to run groupbuy's without going through a vendor.


Protecting a product they don't even sell? I can go flip a car in the for sale section and make a 500% ROI, but I can't sell a few limited production parts for a 0% ROI. I would gladly support this forum if this produced a real income. Fact is, if I added my current rate as an engineer(which all real companies/vendors do), these brackets would be $600+.

Anyways, the admin's are reviewing the problem now. And if they reject it, I'll just put them on eBay and add $100 to the price. Just please stop inducing the drama by your comments on my threads.
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Re: Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Postby UtahSleeper » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:28 pm

bajallama wrote:
athousandleaves wrote:For the record - we need to protect the vendors on this forum and as such can not allow people to sell products that they produce on this forum without having them support the forum. This rule is present in MANY other forums so it should not be foreign to you. Some forums won't even allow members to run groupbuy's without going through a vendor.


Protecting a product they don't even sell? I can go flip a car in the for sale section and make a 500% ROI, but I can't sell a few limited production parts for a 0% ROI. I would gladly support this forum if this produced a real income. Fact is, if I added my current rate as an engineer(which all real companies/vendors do), these brackets would be $600+.

Anyways, the admin's are reviewing the problem now. And if they reject it, I'll just put them on eBay and add $100 to the price. Just please stop inducing the drama by your comments on my threads.


I agree here. If he isn't competing with the vendors on the list and is only selling 1 thing it seems like something that should be left along. Not even talking price/ROI. Kind of like when another user was selling a similar product for Porsche calipers. Its a small product and I doubt there will be more products made by this user, so why push it? It helps the community by saving us from having to blow big cash on BBK's.
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Re: Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Postby pwadm » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:46 am

The border line between a home based business, and a hobby is a often thin, but to quote libercis:

the spirit of the rules is so that businesses don't use the forum to generate significant sales through the forums without the forums themselves benefiting from the transaction. In this case the seller is an individual user, not a business.


The main thread has been reopened. Thanks everyone for your input.
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Re: Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Postby klue » Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:42 pm

I just read through the postings. Very interesting R&D here, and I am very happy to see this progress as a vendor. Big brake kits have been on the market for years, and I love to see guys getting creative and making there own. I have personally spent a lot of time track and street testing the wilwood kit I use and sell to make sure I am comfortable selling it for others use. I would ask that we slow the pace down and make sure that the product is thoroughly tested both in simulation and actual driving conditions for a period of time. Corrosion, repetitive stress, material fatigue will play a role over time, which is something you can not judge on the simulation or a few stop and go's.

bajallama If you need any of my resources let me know

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Re: Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Postby underscore » Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:40 am

bajallama wrote:
2RM wrote:I think you are doing the right thing by trying to make/ sell this kit. Thank you for making it available for everyone! If you would sort the clearance issue for st-185 Im definitely buying this kit. Thanks for doing all the R&D! Don't give up! :D


Ya, one guy with a 185 is getting a kit now, we'll see how it works out.


Running the STi rotor on a 185 will run into clearance issues with the ball joint under cornering, I've been dealing with this issue for a while now. I've removed a fair bit of excess material from my ball joints but I'm still getting a bit of contact under hard turns so I'll have to either trim some more or get a spacer made up.
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Re: Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Postby CSAlltrac » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 pm

bajallama wrote:
CSAlltrac wrote:Im in for a kit. Although I do want to see the results of the 185 buyer beforehand. As far as using a spacer behind the rotor and machining the mounting face; Im a little lost as to what portion of the caliper you are talking about to effectively move it away from the BJ. Would you be willing to elaborate?
Also, I dont see the need to become a vendor for 10 kits. Especially when its a community favor, just my .2c. Did the gentleman producing the Porsche kits have vendor status? Lets try not to punish those that are putting in genuine effort towards making items available for us.


Okay, so if you put a spacer behind your rotor it will move it out further, away from your ball joint, effectively changing your rotor offset. However, now your caliper won't line up centerline to the rotor, it will be off the amount you spaced it off. If you look at the bracket, you will see that it bolts to the back of the hub (you can see a lip). So you just remove that thickness(of the spacer)of material from the bracket where it mates to the back face of the spindle. The lip now becomes deeperIt will then move your caliper centerline to the new centerline of the rotor. If you want I can draw a little sketch if you like. I would suggest running longer wheel studs if you plan on doing this also.

Ya well it is what it is, I understand their concern. I just didn't see how I fit into a vendor category, I don't even know what I would put as my vendor name if I went that route.

Much more clear, thank you. I was under the impression you were talking about the caliper itself. Modifying the bracket makes more sense. Do you think a 3mm spacer would be sufficient?
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Re: Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Postby bajallama » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:19 pm

klue wrote:I just read through the postings. Very interesting R&D here, and I am very happy to see this progress as a vendor. Big brake kits have been on the market for years, and I love to see guys getting creative and making there own. I have personally spent a lot of time track and street testing the wilwood kit I use and sell to make sure I am comfortable selling it for others use. I would ask that we slow the pace down and make sure that the product is thoroughly tested both in simulation and actual driving conditions for a period of time. Corrosion, repetitive stress, material fatigue will play a role over time, which is something you can not judge on the simulation or a few stop and go's.

bajallama If you need any of my resources let me know

Luke


Thanks! I appreciate the offer, I offer my resources also.

As far as testing goes, I have about 7k miles and a ton of canyon abuse (and off-road). I drive a 13% grade highway multiple times a week and on the downhill I really get on the brakes. They have been through tons of heat cycles and have been routinely checked for cracks. Corrosion isn't a big deal since they are made of 6061. The bolts in shear are grade 10.9 and in tension (the small amount there is) are 8.8. I plan to get to the track once I do the rear brakes, but time has not been my friend lately.
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Re: Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Postby bajallama » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:22 pm

CSAlltrac wrote:
bajallama wrote:
CSAlltrac wrote:Im in for a kit. Although I do want to see the results of the 185 buyer beforehand. As far as using a spacer behind the rotor and machining the mounting face; Im a little lost as to what portion of the caliper you are talking about to effectively move it away from the BJ. Would you be willing to elaborate?
Also, I dont see the need to become a vendor for 10 kits. Especially when its a community favor, just my .2c. Did the gentleman producing the Porsche kits have vendor status? Lets try not to punish those that are putting in genuine effort towards making items available for us.


Okay, so if you put a spacer behind your rotor it will move it out further, away from your ball joint, effectively changing your rotor offset. However, now your caliper won't line up centerline to the rotor, it will be off the amount you spaced it off. If you look at the bracket, you will see that it bolts to the back of the hub (you can see a lip). So you just remove that thickness(of the spacer)of material from the bracket where it mates to the back face of the spindle. The lip now becomes deeperIt will then move your caliper centerline to the new centerline of the rotor. If you want I can draw a little sketch if you like. I would suggest running longer wheel studs if you plan on doing this also.

Ya well it is what it is, I understand their concern. I just didn't see how I fit into a vendor category, I don't even know what I would put as my vendor name if I went that route.

Much more clear, thank you. I was under the impression you were talking about the caliper itself. Modifying the bracket makes more sense. Do you think a 3mm spacer would be sufficient?
Keep doing what you are doing, I think you will find more supportive people than un-supportive.


Not entirely sure, if you see in underscore's post, he has rubbing issue's under hard cornering. So I guess it would take some testing but I think 3mm would be sufficient.
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Re: Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Postby bajallama » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:25 pm

underscore wrote:
bajallama wrote:
2RM wrote:I think you are doing the right thing by trying to make/ sell this kit. Thank you for making it available for everyone! If you would sort the clearance issue for st-185 Im definitely buying this kit. Thanks for doing all the R&D! Don't give up! :D


Ya, one guy with a 185 is getting a kit now, we'll see how it works out.


Running the STi rotor on a 185 will run into clearance issues with the ball joint under cornering, I've been dealing with this issue for a while now. I've removed a fair bit of excess material from my ball joints but I'm still getting a bit of contact under hard turns so I'll have to either trim some more or get a spacer made up.


Have you replaced your wheel bearings recently? Do you know your current static gap?

If I end up going further with this brake kit for the 185's, I can get you some spacers to get your kit to work better.
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Re: Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Postby underscore » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:31 pm

I haven't done them recently but I've been meaning to check all that stuff out, what static gap are you referring to?
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Re: Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Postby bajallama » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:08 pm

underscore wrote:I haven't done them recently but I've been meaning to check all that stuff out, what static gap are you referring to?


It would be the brake rotor gap when your suspension or car is not moving, just sitting there
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Re: Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Postby Spectra1 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:01 pm

If I end up going further with this brake kit for the 185's, I can get you some spacers to get your kit to work better.



I would be interested in some of those spacers as well. I have the same Porsche brake kit as Underscore.
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Re: Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Postby bajallama » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:49 pm

Finallllyyy got around to working on the rears and I think I found a solution. If you saw from my previous posts I am using the Legacy GT rear rotor and after turning the hub down and trimming the dust plate, the rotor fits perfect with the parking brake. My original plan was to use the LS430 twin pots, but packaging was vary very hard to do and would not have been strong enough. So after running through different options I settled on using the single pot SC300 rear calipers, and guess what, they are almost perfect! The bolts are bigger so the upright will need to be drilled out and possibly some massaging with a file as the the hole centers are off a few thousands. Also the mounting faces may need to be machined down a tiny bit but it's amazing how the offset is almost perfect!

Also I'm an idiot and bought calipers off of a SC400 at the junkyard and that is what is pictured below. They fit a 307 mm rear rotor instead of a 290 like the 300 and Legacy. but they bolt up the same so one more trip to the junkyard and I think the BBBBK will be complete!

Stock
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SC
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Caliper Bolts

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Re: Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Postby MWP » Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:15 am

Nice work :)
So, you end up with a rotor that's about 1mm bigger in diam, but is thicker & vented, and a twin pot caliper.
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Re: Baller on a Budget BBK (BBBBK)

Postby bajallama » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:38 pm

MWP wrote:Nice work :)
So, you end up with a rotor that's about 1mm bigger in diam, but is thicker & vented, and a twin pot caliper.


Well the SC is not a twin pot, it's a single 42mm piston. What size is the 185 rear rotor? The 165 has only a 269mm rear rotor.

Here is the calcs I came up with for the upgrade:

Stock Line Pressure (350 lb Gain): 445 psi
Rear Caliper Clamping Force: 445 psi * 1.48 in^2 * 2 (Floating Caliper) =1323 lbs
Friction Force: 1323 *.33 = 436 lbs
Rear rotor effective radius: 4.61"
Brake Torque: 436 * 4.61=2012 in-lbs = 167 ft-lbs

LGT rotor and SC300 Caliper:

Stock Line Pressure (350 lb Gain): 445 psi
Rear Caliper Clamping Force: 445 psi * 2.14 in^2 * 2 (Floating Caliper) =1905
Friction Force: 1905 *.33 = 628 lbs
Rear rotor effective radius: 4.88"
Brake Torque: 628 * 4.88=3071 in-lbs = 256 ft-lbs

I read through my excel sheet and made some small changes. I had realized that you multiply the floating caliper by 2 and the fixed has no multiplier (duh). So with those changes I came up with these bias:

Stock:
73% Front
27% Rear


LS430 Front & SC300 Rear:

70% Front
30% Rear

And the kit comes out to a 39% improvement over stock with an increase in thermal mass and better heat disipation.
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