V6 in Camry All-Trac

de_engineered

New member
Brought this up on the Facebook group a while back, curious if there's any more conclusive input to be had here.

Have a Camry Trac with a dead motor (big hole in the block). If I'm going to do a new motor, 3S-GTE ideally of course, but that may be a long time coming. Next best thing IMO would be a V6.

I'm feeling the 3VZ-FE for a variety of reasons, but oh but, can it fit with minimal headaches? What might be involved if otherwise?

Any other runner up 6 cyls that are recommended?
 

de_engineered

New member
Seeing views but no answers lol.

Alternate question: 3VZ-FE et all with 4WD Tacoma transmission, would that bolt in, +/- what effort?

I'm gonna take some pictures/measurements on my own in a week or so...
 

de_engineered

New member
And some Googling reveals that answer to the last question. Sure would be neat if it was that easy.

Still leaning on the V6 in there being possible, measurements pending, will call for some customs exhaust work likely (around the y-pipe). That or some creative reshaping of the pan possibly. We shall see. Stay tuned...
 

de_engineered

New member
So, today's update in stupid swap ideas land is the issue of gearing, namely dropping in a motor with 150% the displacement of the original. Not to mention clutch holding, details details.

According to our always 100% accurate friends at Wikipedia (I'll check my Chiltons/Hanes guides when I get home, think I have two each for both Camrys and Celicas), here's the ratios for a Camry All-Trac 5 speed (E56F):

1st: 3.230
2nd: 2.045
3rd: 1.258
4th: 0.972
5th: 0.731
R: 3.545
F: 3.933

And a 3VZ-FE Camry 5 speed (E53):

1st: 3.538
2nd: 2.045
3rd: 1.333
4th: 1.028
5th: 0.820
R: 3.583
F: 3.625

A while back I found a guy who did a 3VZ-FE swap on his RAV4, similar to the Camry chassis in ways. Call it the Forester to Subaru's Impreza. Didn't pay too much attention to his gearing situation, and iirc he did play with the ratios, if but for the sake of taking care of what he decided was unpleasant about the stock Rav (firewall at work is stopping me from checking blogs, but I will have you know, not car forums evidently!).

Pedning the clutch holding, it would make for a zippy car alright, which is cool and all, but I'm also looking for a tenable daily. Even some tall 4th and 5th gears as "overdrives" wouldn't necicarily do me well.

Just more to mull over and think about. I may very well just to a 5S-FE 2.2, but it's fun to archair admirial bigger ideas in the meantime.
 

alltracman78

Active member
I doubt it would be that hard to do. The Camry was available with a V6, so it will physically fit.
You're not going to blow the stock clutch with a stock V6 either.
Try using the E150/51F transmission. You'll probably have block clearance issues with the transfer case but it can be done.

Someone put a 3VZFE in an Alltrac a while back, Camry's got more room....
 

de_engineered

New member
That theoretical ease of fitment was my original line of reasoning... I guess Camry All-Tracs are rare and niche enough that folks don't want to bother with more pedestrian swaps, usually opting for the 3S-GTE, or like phattyduck, a BEAMS swap.

Also looking to save $, at least for now, so no JDM trans just yet haha. Smog will be an issue for a while still too. I'd get a Caldina front clip just as soon if I could. Motor's going to be the most expensive part at day's end (be it a 3S-GTE or turbo'd 3VZ), and if I take the turbo 3VZ route, I'm part way there already if I use a 3VZ-FE now.

I'm gonna take and post some pictures of the underside of my Trac tonight for posterity, and checking measurements for fitment. Again, people keep alluding to a custom y-pipe, but I don't know if it's necessary, or if the transfer case/propshaft get in the way. We shall see...

Thanks for the feedback!
 

de_engineered

New member
Bleh, the friend I was going to sell the car to still has the key, and it's pushed a bit too close to the curb to slip a jack under the front. Flat passenger side front tire too. Eh.

Here's some midish to rear shots of the exhaust though...

flex_zpsezaw1okd.jpg


first_cat_zpsn6ik2wkj.jpg


prop_zps4nyftvsm.jpg


mid_zpsublhugab.jpg


lit_up_zpsbvkfceqi.jpg


routing_zpsu4v9sykl.jpg


rear_muffler_zpszn183lib.jpg
 

de_engineered

New member
underscore":1trua1z7 said:
What engine is currently in there? Have you considered a 1/3MZ?

3S-FE. The 3VZ-FE kick was prompted by this...

And if nothing else, older motor ought be cheaper. No matter what I put in, I'd want to refresh the head anyway, and the iron block on the 3VZ ought be bulletproof.

Believe you me, a 2GR-FE/FSE would be sick, but $$$ haha/cry.
 

underscore

Well-known member
From the sounds of it the 3VZ bolts up to S series transmissions, motor mounts should work as well given that it shared a chassis with a 5S at one point. You're just left with sorting out a clutch and wiring, the clutch disc is the same as some 1MZ/3SFE/3SGTE and the flywheel is the same as some 1MZ's which is supposed to be the same as the 2GR and 3S. I can't find any info on the pressure plate but you should be able to sort that out by confirming the disc and flywheel. So that likely just leaves you with wiring, which shouldn't be too awful given the schematics and a bit of know how.

Note this is all based on just a little bit of web searching but I have a feeling you'll just need to fab a few fluid lines and some wiring and be good to go.
 

de_engineered

New member
underscore":mhvilq8m said:
From the sounds of it the 3VZ bolts up to S series transmissions, motor mounts should work as well given that it shared a chassis with a 5S at one point. You're just left with sorting out a clutch and wiring, the clutch disc is the same as some 1MZ/3SFE/3SGTE and the flywheel is the same as some 1MZ's which is supposed to be the same as the 2GR and 3S. I can't find any info on the pressure plate but you should be able to sort that out by confirming the disc and flywheel. So that likely just leaves you with wiring, which shouldn't be too awful given the schematics and a bit of know how.

Note this is all based on just a little bit of web searching but I have a feeling you'll just need to fab a few fluid lines and some wiring and be good to go.

Again, lots of a = b, b = c, :. a = c logic with part compatibilities, all pieces of the puzzle.

The Australian guy who 3VZ'd his Celica said "clutch was sorted using the camry flywheel, the celica friction plate, and the camry pressure plate," least on an ST184 Celica. So, nothing need be changed possibly, best case scenario.

Wires, hoses, least of my problems. If the mounts and exhaust fit, that's 75-85% of my tentative issued there.

With luck, this'll all be CA BAR-able all said and done :D

Thanks for the research!
 

de_engineered

New member
Ok kids... Just got off the phone with the California Bureau of Automotive Repair, and have a phone appointment in "2 to 3 business days" to hear back from a state ref about the legality of this swap.

For reference, the official terminology here in California at least is a "change," that is an "engine change" not an "engine swap" (de facto, if not necescarily de jure the same thing though).

From what I gather, if I can transplant the gears from a 3VZ-FE manual Camry (or Lexus ES300, or maybe not - not sure offhand if they offered those in manual) into the Trac, apart from keeping the car driveable, it will in theory be a 'clean' change. For the purposes of changes, CA consideres the transmission as part of the motor.

See details about a similar 2.0 to 3.0L swap here, where I got the inkling the gear swap was even possible.

I'm not sure if I'd need to document the gear changes (nor how that could be accomplished), or if it would be effectively proved by way of the car matching the emmissions of a 92-93 5-speed V6 Camry. If it passes BAR, thereafter for smog purposes it will effectively be a 92-93 5-speed V6 Camry.

And mind you, I'd just go ahead with this harebrained scheme if not for the smog tech being able to see clearly that the stock vehicle, with that drivetrain at least, was only a 4 banger. Yes they had the 2VZ-FE in that gen, but never a an All-Trac. There's a somewhat misleading passage on the Camry WIkipedia article about that that seems to sugguest there was such a car, but so far as I know and have seen, Camry All-Tracs only ever came with 3S-FEs.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Camry#V20_.281986.E2.80.931990.29:2i34h09k said:
Wikipedia[/url]":2i34h09k]The four-wheel-drive system dubbed All-Trac was introduced for 1988 and a 2.5-liter V6 engine was added as an option.

Fingers crossed, and hopes high...
 

bajallama

New member
All they look for is that all the factory smog equipment is retained from the vehicle you pulled the motor from. Obviously must be from a newer vehicle year and must be from a car (not a truck). They don't care for gearing, so don't sweat it. I would go 1mz/3mz though. They are dime a dozen in the junkyards and have higher output.

I think your biggest worry over anything is how you are gonna get that AWD trans to fit onto the V6 without excessive grinding.
 

de_engineered

New member
More responses later, but the state ref just got back to me, and said among other things, if it retains all stock smog equipment and stock location cats (imagine them holding the same position in 3-D space)... It's doable!

There's a slightly ambiguious 3" of net movement that they will allow, which I think means spacers/adapters etc. I couldn't get much more clarity out of the guy, who was impressed with the prospect (and earnestly wished me good luck!).

Also said they couldn't enforce gearing because it was internal stuff, but I may yet still but the 3L gears in. The stock gearing always felt a little short to me, not a bad thing nececarily, but I don't want my mileage to drop even more. This car would be a fun, unique daily, but a DD nonetheless until I can get my rex fixed too.

Ultimately, it's still the ref's call though.

Hmmmmmmmm...
 
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