JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converter

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Re: JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converte

Postby sefiroxx » Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:57 am

Basic dvm's do not have a sampling and display rate to pick up o2 fast signal. You'll need a very expensive dvm with graphing or an oscilloscope. Since both are expensive, a cheap analog from harbor freight is much easier.

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Re: JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converte

Postby alltracman78 » Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:11 am

All you need is a cheap A:F meter to monitor you O2 signal. It's easier to read than an analog volt meter for this particular job. You just need to see how fast the signal is switching. They get a lot of heat but they're pretty handy for giving you a general idea of what the O2 signal is for quick and dirty diagnosis.
You don't even need to put the car in check mode (paperclip), just warm it up and drive. It should do the same thing.
Not that there's anything wrong with an analog meter. Almost all of your input signals are analog so it reads them much better than a DVM. It's great for checking your AFM. I don't think Harbor Freight has one though? But they're not that hard to find online.

Definitely fix your O2 before you worry about your cat. But the JDM cat shouldn't have a problem keeping you in emissions regs out the tailpipe.
Make sure your ignition system is all set too. And I would suggest running a can of seafoam through the engine just to clear out some of the crap that's most likely gunked up in your intake. And take it for a nice long hiway drive to clear everything out before hand.
The other possibility if everything else on your engine is good is your AFM may be out of calibration, even if you have a good signal from it.
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Re: JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converte

Postby 92RC » Sun Dec 12, 2021 6:04 pm

alltracman78 wrote:All you need is a cheap A:F meter to monitor you O2 signal. It's easier to read than an analog volt meter for this particular job. You just need to see how fast the signal is switching. They get a lot of heat but they're pretty handy for giving you a general idea of what the O2 signal is for quick and dirty diagnosis.
You don't even need to put the car in check mode (paperclip), just warm it up and drive. It should do the same thing.
Not that there's anything wrong with an analog meter. Almost all of your input signals are analog so it reads them much better than a DVM. It's great for checking your AFM. I don't think Harbor Freight has one though? But they're not that hard to find online.

Definitely fix your O2 before you worry about your cat. But the JDM cat shouldn't have a problem keeping you in emissions regs out the tailpipe.
Make sure your ignition system is all set too. And I would suggest running a can of seafoam through the engine just to clear out some of the crap that's most likely gunked up in your intake. And take it for a nice long hiway drive to clear everything out before hand.
The other possibility if everything else on your engine is good is your AFM may be out of calibration, even if you have a good signal from it.



Some quick comments here:

  • Where can I find a good cheap Air Fuel Meter? These seem a bit expensive compared to the $10 analog volt meter I bought https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=air+fuel+m ... nb_sb_noss vs https://amzn.com/dp/B00002N5EX/
  • I've ran seafoam months before and the mechanic I had the car at before my second emissions test also used a different product similar to Seafoam, I've also changed the fuel filter, can't hurt to the seafoam + highway drive again I suppose right? It's not like I'm going to get the system too clean or something like that.
  • Is there another way for me to adjust Air Fuel Mixture other than this page from the repair manual? The fact they're calling it the "Idle Mixture" is throwing me off. It also says "If a CO meter is not available, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ADJUST IDLE MIXTURE" so I guess I have to buy this thing https://amzn.com/dp/B091DRT5DN/ strangely I'm not sure where to find a HC tester. I feel like at that point I would rather print out repair manual pages to a shop that does emissions work and have them do it for me, they'll probably have better calibrated equipment anyway.
  • Interestingly, the Repair manual I have a .pdf of RM164E (I'm assuming E stands for Europe) has the info about the Idle Mixture and its adjustments and the RM176U (which says on the cover "For USA and Canada") does not (I also have a .pdf of this one, it's actually searchable unlike the RM164E which is very handy). I guess I'm not all that surprised.

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Re: JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converte

Postby sefiroxx » Sun Dec 12, 2021 7:40 pm

To run a modem AFM in the car, you'll need either:
- narrowband afr guage. While these are helpful, the data stream provided by the o2 sensor and the old wiring, can restrain accurate and/or meaningful data. They try to interpret small voltage changes on the signal bounce
Or
- a wideband 02 sensor and afr guage. These send a continuous voltage signal to the ecu on a wide voltage range.

The 5th gen ecus require a narrow band o2 that sends pulses. If you want to run a wideband o2, you'll need to add a 2nd o2 sensor that is independently wired to the AFM, or, run a custom ecu.

As for CO adjustment, there are many possible root causes of rich fuel mixture that causes CO. Possible causes for running rich:
- improper idle
- bad o2 sensor (telling the ecu that the car is running lean)
- bad map/maf sensor (telling the ecu the air is heavy)
- bad coolant sensor (telling the ecu that the engine is still cold)
- bad tps sensor (telling the ecu the throttle is open wider)
- leaking injector
- dirty air filter

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Re: JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converte

Postby alltracman78 » Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:33 am

92RC wrote:[list]
[*]Where can I find a good cheap Air Fuel Meter? These seem a bit expensive compared to the $10 analog volt meter I bought https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=air+fuel+m ... nb_sb_noss vs https://amzn.com/dp/B00002N5EX/

[*]I've ran seafoam months before and the mechanic I had the car at before my second emissions test also used a different product similar to Seafoam, I've also changed the fuel filter, can't hurt to the seafoam + highway drive again I suppose right? It's not like I'm going to get the system too clean or something like that.

[*]Is there another way for me to adjust Air Fuel Mixture other than this page from the repair manual? The fact they're calling it the "Idle Mixture" is throwing me off. It also says "If a CO meter is not available, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ADJUST IDLE MIXTURE" so I guess I have to buy this thing https://amzn.com/dp/B091DRT5DN/ strangely I'm not sure where to find a HC tester. I feel like at that point I would rather print out repair manual pages to a shop that does emissions work and have them do it for me, they'll probably have better calibrated equipment anyway.


Not sure where to find a cheap one off the top of my head. A voltmeter will work, it's just easier with the AF gauge because it's smaller, easier to mount and the lights are easier to see out of the corner of your eye.

If you've already ran it 2x no sense in really doing it again. Won't hurt, but.....

I don't think we have that adjustment screw on our cars? Maybe you do because yours is JDM, but that may be a European thing only.
If your engine is tuned up and cleaned out I would focus on the O2 sensor and see if that fixes it. Don't try to get complicated unless you have to.

You probably won't have a lot of luck with adjustments like that at a shop. Unless they charge you a whole bunch of money. And even then it will probably go nowhere.

Oh, and that CO tester isn't really designed for auto use. You want something with a probe that you can stick into the exhaust. You need to sample the straight exhaust gas, not mixed with outside air.


sefiroxx wrote:To run a modem AFM in the car, you'll need either:
- narrowband afr guage. While these are helpful, the data stream provided by the o2 sensor and the old wiring, can restrain accurate and/or meaningful data. They try to interpret small voltage changes on the signal bounce
Or
- a wideband 02 sensor and afr guage. These send a continuous voltage signal to the ecu on a wide voltage range.

The 5th gen ecus require a narrow band o2 that sends pulses. If you want to run a wideband o2, you'll need to add a 2nd o2 sensor that is independently wired to the AFM, or, run a custom ecu.


Not trying to pick you apart man, just trying to make sure accurate info is getting out there. :)

A narrow band A:F gauge is going to give you the same info a voltmeter will. .1 To .9 volts. It's reading the exact same signal. It's just using a goofy light bar instead of a needle. And it's not a pulsing signal. It's an analog signal that can be relatively flat (cold start, WOT, ect) or a continually variable curve from (roughly) .1 to .9 during closed loop operation.

The wideband actually uses current (amps) as it's signal. Not voltage. It does have a larger range than a narrow band sensor, and the signal changes slower than a narrowband, so it's easier to read small changes in oxygen levels. But yes, you'll need a second sensor for that. Can't use the narrow band one the car comes with. :)
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Re: JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converte

Postby sefiroxx » Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:49 am

alltracman78 wrote:

Not trying to pick you apart man, just trying to make sure accurate info is getting out there. :)

A narrow band A:F gauge is going to give you the same info a voltmeter will. .1 To .9 volts. It's reading the exact same signal. It's just using a goofy light bar instead of a needle. And it's not a pulsing signal. It's an analog signal that can be relatively flat (cold start, WOT, ect) or a continually variable curve from (roughly) .1 to .9 during closed loop operation.

The wideband actually uses current (amps) as it's signal. Not voltage. It does have a larger range than a narrow band sensor, and the signal changes slower than a narrowband, so it's easier to read small changes in oxygen levels. But yes, you'll need a second sensor for that. Can't use the narrow band one the car comes with. :)


Hope I'm not trolling, (and yes, it's amps, here's the rest of the details)

Narrowband history.
- original narrowband had a bouncing signal between .1-.9v with the ecu trying to keep the bounce frequency at a certain frequency. The old afr gauges first presented a bouncing analog needle and then a circuit that would count the bounce and present it as a number.
- engine experts eventually figured out that the max voltage was varying. But when the variability is only .1-.5 volts, the vintage variance could be easily corrupted by wire resistance impacted by material, heat, moisture etc. That lead to
A)
- creation of an afr gauge that would try to display the small voltage variances as afm data, but with the caveat that the user should aware of environmental factors

B)
Development of Wideband sensor.
- goal of the WB development was to develop continuous signal (without a bounce) that had a indication based on normal sensor reference technology. This uses a reference signal (voltage) sent by the ecu and then comparing the return voltage to the original reference. However, the voltage interpretation in a hit environment is problematic , so. . .
- a voltage signal is created in the o2 sensor using a nernst cell. It fluctuates though (based on O2 levels. The edu sends a reference signal to the sensor which is used by the sensor in a 2nd internal circuit called the pump. This uses current to push o2 into/out of the nernst cell in an attempt to match the reference signal. This takes current, and the current used is measured at the ecu. The ecu then a) uses the data to change injector pulse width and b) creates a obdII compliant voltage signal.

So yes, voltage goes in (and to move, it pulled through via current). The return to the ecu is measured as how much current is left (pulled thru the ecu. By relying on current measurement, the flow rate is consistent once everything reaches temperature.

In any case, the afr guage for NB vs WB are different. Some WB gauges utilize the odbII signal while others can tie directly to the o2 sensor - reading the current. These need to be tuned for each type of WB sensor.


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Re: JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converte

Postby 92RC » Wed Dec 29, 2021 5:54 am

Alright Y'all, I'm back after an eventful holiday, I hope everyone is doing well! I've made some progress with the Oxygen sensor, I'll start with the tests. I did buy an old school MultiMeter (Thanks to everyone for suggesting that) and jumpered everything per the service manual's recommendations.

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You can see in the picture the needle picked a reading, it was steady when I took that picture (shortly after cold starting the car) but by the time the video camera started rolling it was not reading anything at all. I suspect that was the car going "Wake up sensor! It's time for some sensoring!" and it's been dead for years and years. I continued with the recommendations (for whatever reason the American service manual has the same instructions but the diagrams aren't as useful).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6ZF3_hJrt8o

I just realized right now I didn't count to 120 seconds when maintaining 2,500 RPM but it was about 60 seconds or so, absolutely no activity. Later on are some pictures of the sensor, even if it is reading something I want to replace it anyway, it can't hurt. Don't worry about that engine light, that's a 54 from me bumping a cable, I need to replace a lot of the engine bay plugs.

Just in case if anyone is skeptical about if my multimeter is connected correctly, here's a video of the car starting and stopping with that same jumpered setup, you can see a slight blip on the needle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhSBIUygBCo

So that was about a week ago, I bought the Denso sensor I linked and it came in today, here's some comparisons.

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You can't see it super well from my first picture but the new one is pretty much the same dimension below the metal part that attaches to the car, it's slightly shorter than the old one, I wouldn't think that would be a big problem.

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The problem is the plug, it ain't the same. This doesn't concern me because on GT4-Play's website it says "Single wire for early JDM MR2 and ST185, You will need to cut off your plug and splice onto the new sensor, ships with crimps"(https://gt4-play.co.uk/shop/denso-02-ox ... st202-5983), that might work well because the old sensor's cable length is perfect but the new one is too long. Has anyone done this? I was thinking I wanted to cut an inch from the old plug and a good length into the new sensor and solder the wire in there (it better be 1 wire in there or so help me) along with some heat shrink tubing but I'm thinking it might be hotter in the engine bay for that to work well. Idk I'm not super great with electrical stuff but I'm getting better, I'm open to ideas regarding best practices.

Also, how is this gasket supposed to go? I noticed both the old one and the new one were "bent", I think the point was facing upwards when I removed it just now, the instructions don't mention this, they only mention using anti seize (I have some copper anti seize that I plan to use).

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Also here's the old gasket, supe's rusty.

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Re: JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converte

Postby underscore » Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:27 pm

It's hard to see on my phone, are the actual pins inside the plug the same? If so you might be able to just depin them both and swap the plastic plug over to the new one.
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Re: JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converte

Postby alltracman78 » Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:38 pm

Don't cut the wire.
You can remove the connector and install the old one on the new sensor.
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Re: JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converte

Postby 92RC » Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:44 pm

alltracman78 wrote:Don't cut the wire.
You can remove the connector and install the old one on the new sensor.


underscore wrote:It's hard to see on my phone, are the actual pins inside the plug the same? If so you might be able to just depin them both and swap the plastic plug over to the new one.



Ok so I was going to post "how do I disassemble that?" and post https://www.toyota-tech.eu/wire_harness_rm/RM06H0E.pdf mention it has a 10892 stamped on it (which is shown on page 427, and that's discontinued https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toy ... 85L-BLMVZA) blah blah blah.

Spoiler alert, the oxygen sensor is in and it's functioning but I'm going to schedule an appointment with a shop that specializes in emissions and take a test that day, more info below.

Oh and here's what appears to be a diagram of the plug, I tried actually pushing in the part circled before finding this picture (I think I put my little screwdriver in between the metal part and that tab not the other way around) and moving the entire plug down without luck, I was trying to be as careful as possible so I was thinking "if I break this darn thing I'm going to have a really bad time."
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So I took the new sensor and made sure it was going to work, I took some wire I had on hand and did this:

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I started the car with the multimeter and jumper connected and started holding down the throttle at 2,500 RPM. This time I got out my stopwatch and watched for 2 minutes. About a 1m45s in I was about to give up and I see the multimeter spring up, then down, then start pulsing as described in the repair manual! Wooooo! So I stepped out of the car to inspect my work and the car tried to stall itself after a few seconds. I run back over to the cabin and check the tach and it was seriously trying to idle at 400 RPM (I only fixed the tachometer in July or something but even without reading the number I think it's always idled at about 1,100 RPM since having the car) so I gave it some throttle to help it out but it went back down to 400 or 600 or something (and the exhaust smelled super awful). Shutting off the car and turning it back on didn't fix the problem so I disconnected the negative terminal on the battery for a few minutes.

After that the car started, the multimeter pulsed as before and it idled at 800-900. Great! I took the sensor back off and planned to take the old one apart. I should note here even though I didn't wait the full 2 minutes before calling the old sensor dead the fact the car was adjusting the idle for the first time proved to me the old sensor was kaput.

By the way here's a size comparison if anyone wants it:

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I completely mutilated the new plug (because I have no use for it) and exposed this little clamp part.

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I noticed after removing the orange dust cover rubber thing from the plug I noticed I had likely exposed the copper from the old wire, so I twisted it a bunch and exposed the clamp thingee that held the wire. I added some marine grade heatshrink tubing to the new wire (it has adhesive built in, shoutout to BosnianBill's YouTube channel for that protip) and continued

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I crimped the plug from the new sensor down to a smaller size and shoved it into the spot previously occupied by the old sensor's wire, after multiple attempts (and twisting) I got the new wire to seem like it would reasonably stay put, I have a kinda small pair of needlenose pliers so I was able to get into the plug and clamp down on the plug tighter.

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So at the end of the day I'm relying on an OK connection into that plug and the glue on the heatshrink to keep the whole thing together and not move. The plug is far enough away from a massive heat source I would think it should be fine but I'm honestly not super sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaSVkd4ejVw

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Adding anti-seize

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Torqueing to 44 NM

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Time to test! I know the sensor works but of course I needed to see if my plug did. Spoiler, 10 pulses in 10 seconds! Beats the 8 pulse minimum!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w252mpihxrA

My pro zip tie work. Don't worry, I checked for pulses after doing this. All good!

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So one closing thought on this reply, I haven't driven the car after making this change so perhaps the exhaust smell will be less apparent after that but since it still smells a bit I'm going to schedule something the day I do the emissions test with a shop that specializes in emissions work. I'm already going to be paying $75 in emissions tests but if there is a problem and it's addressed within 10 days of the last test I don't have to pay for the test again. If I pass I'll cancel the appointment.

I'm out of time for the moment but I'll provide pictures of changing a tube from the Turbo to the chargecooler and the coupler between the chargecooler and the throttle body, I replaced those right before this to prevent the engine from running lean. More info on that soon.
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Re: JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converte

Postby 92RC » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:29 pm

So here's the other things I've done to improve emissions, I made this video (I was slightly annoyed at the time, I felt better when I was done because I got to learn about the car) to show what needs to be done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P2XZCGeTDY

The next day I did remove the strut tower bar, there were some things attached to it (boost controller part, coolant reservoir for chargecooler) so I figured it was easier to prop it up.

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It was seriously in the way so I determined it was easier to take it out, this is how one of the previous owners attached those to the bar, interesting...

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Ah much better

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Here is the broken throttle body coupler, I was told this allowing air in will cause the engine to run lean

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VS the new one, here's where I bought it https://gt4-play.co.uk/shop/throttle-bo ... er-coupler

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The hose seems pretty standard but the metal part seems pretty well made and machined, not perfect and pretty utilitarian but in theory the hose could be replaced if needed
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Old turbo to intercooler hose, I feel this was clamped too far in causing the hose to curl up on the edges over time creating a boost leak.
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It was kinda dirty inside so I wiped off a good amount, it's my understanding this isn't a cause for alarm but I'm still quite new to working on turbo cars so I'm not 100% sure

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A bit cleaner
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The bump on this wasn't as dramatic by the time I buttoned everything up, I was concerned it wasn't forming a good seal at the time but I ended up breaking one of my clamps (good thing they came in a 2-pack) so I tried again shortly after taking this picture.
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If anyone has a brand/product recommendation on non crap clamps let me know, I got these at O'Riley's and I don't remember if they had more expensive ones or not.

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So I had to take the strut tower bar off to get at the throttle body connector, because this isn't expected on the stock version this part of the clamp is touching the bar. What's weird is this part appears to have a right way up and wrong way up. The clamp adjustment seemed to me to be upside down so I moved it and tried again, there isn't much I can do about it other than find a similar "low profile" clamp if such a thing exists.

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At least the turbo hose seems to be on there nice and tight and forming a good seal

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Day 3, adding the strut tower bar back in (the service manual calls it a "Suspension Upper Brace"), I had to borrow a smaller torque wrench for the middle firewall bolts (there's what's a "Tool Library" where I live so I bought a year subscription of that) which required 21 NM (which seems surprisingly low to me, my other wrench doesn't go lower than 40 NM.

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I drove the car around (this was before putting the new oxygen sensor in) and I was able to notice a lot of improvement. The idle was much more consistent and the power delivery was much smoother so I must have installed the throttle body coupler on correctly which is nice (I was constantly humming The Fray's "Over My Head" when working on this because I felt I didn't know what I was doing, I guess I wasn't in over my head). No noticeable boost leaks as well (the loss of power was obvious when I had boost leaks). If you compare the turbo hose from when I freshly installed it vs when I put in the oxygen sensor its pretty bulged in the middle which indicates to me air was sealed tightly and heated the hose up to deform it without breaking the seal. Most other stock-ish RC models I've seen pictures of online have the hose bulging in the middle like that.

So yeah, I think that's it! Once the weather gets nicer for a bit I'll get my emissions test repairs scheduled and hope I pass!
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Re: JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converte

Postby 93celicaconv » Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:37 pm

Good to see you got things squared away and working properly again. Good job.

Regarding your intake air tubes/hoses, remember, your ST185 has an air flow meter (AFM), which is what tells the ECU what the rate of air flow is going into the intake manifold. This is what tells the ECU what fuel amount (injector duration) is required for the engine at every moment. If you have any slight leak from the discharge of the AFM to the inlet of the throttle body, you will have an error in the actual air flow amount versus the measured air flow amount, which will cause a non-ideal air:fuel ratio.

Also, if you ran your engine for a while rich (which is possible if all the measured air going through the AFM isn't getting to the intake manifold, due to after-turbo booster pressure leaks), your cat could be partially covered in soot, causing the continue exhaust odor you may be noticing after the repair. This should correct itself after a good long drive if the air:fuel ratio is good - the heat of the cat should burn that soot off.

Way to go ...... good job!
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Re: JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converte

Postby simple » Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:38 am

Ditto nice job!
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Re: JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converte

Postby 92RC » Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:25 am

Thanks everyone! I'm glad I'm on the right track! I'm waiting on a couple of unrelated parts to come in before I can drive it but I should be able to drive her soon. I almost got a ticket for having an expired temp tag (I was pulled over by a State Trooper, it's my understanding the local police don't care about expired temp tags) so I'll have to get that renewed...again...before doing my drives. The trooper that pulled me over gave me his card so in theory I can be like "y'all already got me" but it's only $7 to renew so I might as well do that just in case.
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Re: JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converte

Postby alltracman78 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:10 pm

Nice!

Good job replacing that TB connector. That was a problem waiting to happen. How much larger was the silicone hose than the intercooler output?
FYI the ST165 TB coupler works for the RC also. If they're still in production. Also you can get an MR2 TB adapter (very similar to the aluminum piece you have) in the states. I think ATS racing makes them? Or did?

What brand is that strut tower brace? Pretty cool it has the mounting points for stuff on it. I've never seen that before.

Next time I would suggest a 5SFE (5th gen) O2 sensor. The pin in the wiring should be the correct size. And once again a US part that's cheaper and easier to find. That looks more like something from 80s Toyota wiring. That way you won't have to mess with the pin like that. Also, I hope you saved the original O2 connector. That way you can reuse it again.

If you have to cut something, cut the sensor. You never want to cut the harness if you can help it because it's irreplaceable (or close enough to). The sensor is much cheaper/easier to replace. I know you didn't cut the harness, just saying FYI. :)
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