JDM 92 GT-Four RC Colorado Emissions, Catalytic Converter

simple

Member
Yeah you are overthinking it. Is this your only car or just for fun? You bought an exotic JDM car and are depending on mechanics to work on it? Do you have that kind of extra $$ to blow?

The ebay seller has a 30 day return window. So if you fail emissions with that part you can return it.

If you are near Golden I can help you with this project if you really can't turn a wrench or whatever. First thing is pulling the JDM downpipe and see if it is hollow.

Or spend $500 and have a muffler shop weld in an aftermarket 50 state cat wherever it can fit. It will not be in the factory location. Colorado aren't crazy strict like CA with visual tests.
 

92RC

Member
simple":7848qrvl said:
Yeah you are overthinking it.

Haha man have I heard that before. This is my fun car, just want to get it done correctly, I live in an apartment downtown Denver and I'm quickly realizing it's time to start renting a house to work on my cars easier. The main thing I'm afraid of at this point is my lack of experience putting the car in an undrivable state and me having it sit for a long time before I get around fixing it. I've been getting more adventurous overall with working on things so I'll get there.

That's a good point about the 30 day return window, I'll put some thought into that. I'll hit you up for sure if I need any local help! On one hand I'm only in theory spending $700 on parts and labor regardless of what it costs over top of that, on the other hand $300 plus not having to pay myself is another thing.
 

simple

Member
You sound like me when I was in my early 20s. GTFO of hellhole Denver before your shit gets stolen. It happens constantly and cops don't care or can't do anything about it.
 

underscore

Well-known member
The JDM cats definitely aren't hollow from the factory, I've seen mine and my friend gutter hers so there's definitely stuff in there. If anything I'd think the JDM cat is more heavy duty since it doesn't have a secondary after it and they've got that little temperature probe to tell if the cat is clogged up that the USDM ones don't have.
 

92RC

Member
underscore":1rh38e6z said:
The JDM cats definitely aren't hollow from the factory, I've seen mine and my friend gutter hers so there's definitely stuff in there. If anything I'd think the JDM cat is more heavy duty since it doesn't have a secondary after it and they've got that little temperature probe to tell if the cat is clogged up that the USDM ones don't have.

Thanks for this info, is the temperature probe droid plugged directly into the cat or is in proximity to it? I'm curious if I would have to bypass this if I go aftermarket.
 

92RC

Member
Just some info about oxygen sensors, the USDM part # is 89465-29365 and the JDM part # is 89465-29355

Our friends at JDM of Miami have a picture of it https://jdmofmiami.com/product/sensor-o ... 465-20180/ and they do mention it's the same as 89465-20180



GT4-Play has a Single Wire (out of stock) https://gt4-play.co.uk/shop/denso-02-ox ... st202-5983 and a 4 Wire https://gt4-play.co.uk/shop/denso-lambd ... st205-4451 but judging by my pictures it's a single wire sadly.

I'm seeing where to buy a used one that doesn't look completely trashed so maybe I'll need to buy that.

Edit: More info, I found this forum from some MR2 owners http://www.mr2.com/forums/threads/97154-Oxygen-sensor and the 2.2L NA MR2 for the USDM uses a single wire sensor that apparently works on JDM 3S-GTE MR2 models, Denso Part # 234-1056 https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/den ... 20471249-P so maybe that's what I need for my Celica

Edit: Anyone reading this in the future you'll actually need Denso Part # 234-1053 https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/den ... gen+Sensor you'll see in the thread I was able to transplant the old plug from my car and put it on the MR2 sensor but you can actually buy the correct part for the Celica, it's just the sensor used on the 2.2L USDM models. At time of the writing the MR2 sensor is $20 cheaper so you can follow my tutorial if you want to save a few bucks.
 

underscore

Well-known member
92RC":1pbyr5dg said:
underscore":1pbyr5dg said:
The JDM cats definitely aren't hollow from the factory, I've seen mine and my friend gutter hers so there's definitely stuff in there. If anything I'd think the JDM cat is more heavy duty since it doesn't have a secondary after it and they've got that little temperature probe to tell if the cat is clogged up that the USDM ones don't have.

Thanks for this info, is the temperature probe droid plugged directly into the cat or is in proximity to it? I'm curious if I would have to bypass this if I go aftermarket.

It's visible in these two pictures you posted

92RC":1pbyr5dg said:
This picture looks like it has some sort of Catalytic Converter material in it, here's the full page, it took a while for me to load https://raspil.su/detail/165588 (alt https://web.archive.org/web/20211207023 ... ail/165588)




ST185-0023348 is a 1992 BLMVZ model with the 25051-74020 https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1992- ... gt-four-2/

I've never heard of anyone being able to successfully remove one from the cat, they get insanely seized in there. Fortunately, due to the way the warning light operates, you can just unplug it with no issues.
 

sefiroxx

New member
Jumping in late:

Standard cat configuration for all models uses the downpipe cat (the one that is gutted). California models have a second cat added after the flex and around the resonator (long round pipe that is 2" wider in diameter)

The o2 sensor is a upstream sensor that provides information for fuel trim. Without a signal from the o2 sensor, the computer will go into open loop. Open loop is basically cold start with higher air and fuel thus the higher hc and co2.

Summary
- it looks like the engine is running rich and cool which would cause higher hc, co2 and low nox.
- you can use a paperclip with a old school analog meter to confirm the o2 sensor is working. The needle will bounce using this approach.
- gutted cat. I'm running one here in TX. With the 25 year car registered as "classic", I only have to pass see the safety test even in a smog county. Part of the exam is verifying that the smog devices are installed (but they don't test if they are working). If you did an import, they left the gutted cat in place to pass the physical import inspection (Ie seat belts)

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92RC

Member
sefiroxx":3jufv5gw said:
Jumping in late:

Standard cat configuration for all models uses the downpipe cat (the one that is gutted). California models have a second cat added after the flex and around the resonator (long round pipe that is 2" wider in diameter)

The o2 sensor is a upstream sensor that provides information for fuel trim. Without a signal from the o2 sensor, the computer will go into open loop. Open loop is basically cold start with higher air and fuel thus the higher hc and co2.

Summary
- it looks like the engine is running rich and cool which would cause higher hc, co2 and low nox.
- you can use a paperclip with a old school analog meter to confirm the o2 sensor is working. The needle will bounce using this approach.
- gutted cat. I'm running one here in TX. With the 25 year car registered as "classic", I only have to pass see the safety test even in a smog county. Part of the exam is verifying that the smog devices are installed (but they don't test if they are working). If you did an import, they left the gutted cat in place to pass the physical import inspection (Ie seat belts)

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I see! So that 100% lines up with bad O2 sensor, not bad catalytic converter (well at least not necessarily, the fact the NOx is low might be a good enough indicator that thing is doing its job). I looked up the Service Manual and I'm seeing what you're talking about, could I do it with a digital MultiMeter? I guess I could buy this one and add it to my quickly growing MultiMeter collection https://amzn.com/dp/B00002N5EX

Classic cars in Colorado have to be over 32 years old and need to pass an emissions test apparently so I'm out of luck there.

I called the shop I have it at and I mentioned "yeah I might take it to a place that specializes in emissions work" which they seemed to be OK with (they might be wanting to be gone with it which is understandable, they don't specialize in this sort of work), they're going to button up the other things I'd like done (I bought a Throttle Body Adapter & Coupler from GT4-Play and a Turbo To Intercooler Hose, I also want the charge cooler sensor wire rewired to the plug since it's just dangling from the plug). I went over the overview of information I found out and the guy I was talking to was like "um...yeah that's a lot I guess" (I have that effect on people). It's cool, hopefully they don't have trouble with the other stuff.

 
I think sefiroxx's response is an excellent summary of your situation, and his recommendations are spot on.

Your best bet is an analog DVOM (not digital), because what you are looking for are the cycles the O2 sensor should be putting out (easy to see the needle going back and forth at some frequency - very difficult to see those cycles on a digital display). I remember doing this on one of my early Celica's, and I do remember a frequency value that the O2 sesnsor must be at or above to consider it working right. I remember mine was much slower. I replaced it, and checked it, and the frequency of the swings was a fair amount above the minimum frequency on the new one, and the problems were resolved.
 

sefiroxx

New member
Basic dvm's do not have a sampling and display rate to pick up o2 fast signal. You'll need a very expensive dvm with graphing or an oscilloscope. Since both are expensive, a cheap analog from harbor freight is much easier.

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alltracman78

Active member
All you need is a cheap A:F meter to monitor you O2 signal. It's easier to read than an analog volt meter for this particular job. You just need to see how fast the signal is switching. They get a lot of heat but they're pretty handy for giving you a general idea of what the O2 signal is for quick and dirty diagnosis.
You don't even need to put the car in check mode (paperclip), just warm it up and drive. It should do the same thing.
Not that there's anything wrong with an analog meter. Almost all of your input signals are analog so it reads them much better than a DVM. It's great for checking your AFM. I don't think Harbor Freight has one though? But they're not that hard to find online.

Definitely fix your O2 before you worry about your cat. But the JDM cat shouldn't have a problem keeping you in emissions regs out the tailpipe.
Make sure your ignition system is all set too. And I would suggest running a can of seafoam through the engine just to clear out some of the crap that's most likely gunked up in your intake. And take it for a nice long hiway drive to clear everything out before hand.
The other possibility if everything else on your engine is good is your AFM may be out of calibration, even if you have a good signal from it.
 

92RC

Member
alltracman78":wfay2lpf said:
All you need is a cheap A:F meter to monitor you O2 signal. It's easier to read than an analog volt meter for this particular job. You just need to see how fast the signal is switching. They get a lot of heat but they're pretty handy for giving you a general idea of what the O2 signal is for quick and dirty diagnosis.
You don't even need to put the car in check mode (paperclip), just warm it up and drive. It should do the same thing.
Not that there's anything wrong with an analog meter. Almost all of your input signals are analog so it reads them much better than a DVM. It's great for checking your AFM. I don't think Harbor Freight has one though? But they're not that hard to find online.

Definitely fix your O2 before you worry about your cat. But the JDM cat shouldn't have a problem keeping you in emissions regs out the tailpipe.
Make sure your ignition system is all set too. And I would suggest running a can of seafoam through the engine just to clear out some of the crap that's most likely gunked up in your intake. And take it for a nice long hiway drive to clear everything out before hand.
The other possibility if everything else on your engine is good is your AFM may be out of calibration, even if you have a good signal from it.


Some quick comments here:

  • Where can I find a good cheap Air Fuel Meter? These seem a bit expensive compared to the $10 analog volt meter I bought https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=air+fuel+m ... nb_sb_noss vs https://amzn.com/dp/B00002N5EX/
  • I've ran seafoam months before and the mechanic I had the car at before my second emissions test also used a different product similar to Seafoam, I've also changed the fuel filter, can't hurt to the seafoam + highway drive again I suppose right? It's not like I'm going to get the system too clean or something like that.
  • Is there another way for me to adjust Air Fuel Mixture other than this page from the repair manual? The fact they're calling it the "Idle Mixture" is throwing me off. It also says "If a CO meter is not available, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ADJUST IDLE MIXTURE" so I guess I have to buy this thing https://amzn.com/dp/B091DRT5DN/ strangely I'm not sure where to find a HC tester. I feel like at that point I would rather print out repair manual pages to a shop that does emissions work and have them do it for me, they'll probably have better calibrated equipment anyway.
  • Interestingly, the Repair manual I have a .pdf of RM164E (I'm assuming E stands for Europe) has the info about the Idle Mixture and its adjustments and the RM176U (which says on the cover "For USA and Canada") does not (I also have a .pdf of this one, it's actually searchable unlike the RM164E which is very handy). I guess I'm not all that surprised.


 

sefiroxx

New member
To run a modem AFM in the car, you'll need either:
- narrowband afr guage. While these are helpful, the data stream provided by the o2 sensor and the old wiring, can restrain accurate and/or meaningful data. They try to interpret small voltage changes on the signal bounce
Or
- a wideband 02 sensor and afr guage. These send a continuous voltage signal to the ecu on a wide voltage range.

The 5th gen ecus require a narrow band o2 that sends pulses. If you want to run a wideband o2, you'll need to add a 2nd o2 sensor that is independently wired to the AFM, or, run a custom ecu.

As for CO adjustment, there are many possible root causes of rich fuel mixture that causes CO. Possible causes for running rich:
- improper idle
- bad o2 sensor (telling the ecu that the car is running lean)
- bad map/maf sensor (telling the ecu the air is heavy)
- bad coolant sensor (telling the ecu that the engine is still cold)
- bad tps sensor (telling the ecu the throttle is open wider)
- leaking injector
- dirty air filter

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alltracman78

Active member
92RC":1hojrqqt said:
  • Where can I find a good cheap Air Fuel Meter? These seem a bit expensive compared to the $10 analog volt meter I bought https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=air+fuel+m ... nb_sb_noss vs https://amzn.com/dp/B00002N5EX/
  • I've ran seafoam months before and the mechanic I had the car at before my second emissions test also used a different product similar to Seafoam, I've also changed the fuel filter, can't hurt to the seafoam + highway drive again I suppose right? It's not like I'm going to get the system too clean or something like that.
  • Is there another way for me to adjust Air Fuel Mixture other than this page from the repair manual? The fact they're calling it the "Idle Mixture" is throwing me off. It also says "If a CO meter is not available, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ADJUST IDLE MIXTURE" so I guess I have to buy this thing https://amzn.com/dp/B091DRT5DN/ strangely I'm not sure where to find a HC tester. I feel like at that point I would rather print out repair manual pages to a shop that does emissions work and have them do it for me, they'll probably have better calibrated equipment anyway.


  • Not sure where to find a cheap one off the top of my head. A voltmeter will work, it's just easier with the AF gauge because it's smaller, easier to mount and the lights are easier to see out of the corner of your eye.

    If you've already ran it 2x no sense in really doing it again. Won't hurt, but.....

    I don't think we have that adjustment screw on our cars? Maybe you do because yours is JDM, but that may be a European thing only.
    If your engine is tuned up and cleaned out I would focus on the O2 sensor and see if that fixes it. Don't try to get complicated unless you have to.

    You probably won't have a lot of luck with adjustments like that at a shop. Unless they charge you a whole bunch of money. And even then it will probably go nowhere.

    Oh, and that CO tester isn't really designed for auto use. You want something with a probe that you can stick into the exhaust. You need to sample the straight exhaust gas, not mixed with outside air.


    sefiroxx":1hojrqqt said:
    To run a modem AFM in the car, you'll need either:
    - narrowband afr guage. While these are helpful, the data stream provided by the o2 sensor and the old wiring, can restrain accurate and/or meaningful data. They try to interpret small voltage changes on the signal bounce
    Or
    - a wideband 02 sensor and afr guage. These send a continuous voltage signal to the ecu on a wide voltage range.

    The 5th gen ecus require a narrow band o2 that sends pulses. If you want to run a wideband o2, you'll need to add a 2nd o2 sensor that is independently wired to the AFM, or, run a custom ecu.

    Not trying to pick you apart man, just trying to make sure accurate info is getting out there. :)

    A narrow band A:F gauge is going to give you the same info a voltmeter will. .1 To .9 volts. It's reading the exact same signal. It's just using a goofy light bar instead of a needle. And it's not a pulsing signal. It's an analog signal that can be relatively flat (cold start, WOT, ect) or a continually variable curve from (roughly) .1 to .9 during closed loop operation.

    The wideband actually uses current (amps) as it's signal. Not voltage. It does have a larger range than a narrow band sensor, and the signal changes slower than a narrowband, so it's easier to read small changes in oxygen levels. But yes, you'll need a second sensor for that. Can't use the narrow band one the car comes with. :)
 

sefiroxx

New member
alltracman78":18mkkd4i said:
Not trying to pick you apart man, just trying to make sure accurate info is getting out there. :)

A narrow band A:F gauge is going to give you the same info a voltmeter will. .1 To .9 volts. It's reading the exact same signal. It's just using a goofy light bar instead of a needle. And it's not a pulsing signal. It's an analog signal that can be relatively flat (cold start, WOT, ect) or a continually variable curve from (roughly) .1 to .9 during closed loop operation.

The wideband actually uses current (amps) as it's signal. Not voltage. It does have a larger range than a narrow band sensor, and the signal changes slower than a narrowband, so it's easier to read small changes in oxygen levels. But yes, you'll need a second sensor for that. Can't use the narrow band one the car comes with. :)

Hope I'm not trolling, (and yes, it's amps, here's the rest of the details)

Narrowband history.
- original narrowband had a bouncing signal between .1-.9v with the ecu trying to keep the bounce frequency at a certain frequency. The old afr gauges first presented a bouncing analog needle and then a circuit that would count the bounce and present it as a number.
- engine experts eventually figured out that the max voltage was varying. But when the variability is only .1-.5 volts, the vintage variance could be easily corrupted by wire resistance impacted by material, heat, moisture etc. That lead to
A)
- creation of an afr gauge that would try to display the small voltage variances as afm data, but with the caveat that the user should aware of environmental factors

B)
Development of Wideband sensor.
- goal of the WB development was to develop continuous signal (without a bounce) that had a indication based on normal sensor reference technology. This uses a reference signal (voltage) sent by the ecu and then comparing the return voltage to the original reference. However, the voltage interpretation in a hit environment is problematic , so. . .
- a voltage signal is created in the o2 sensor using a nernst cell. It fluctuates though (based on O2 levels. The edu sends a reference signal to the sensor which is used by the sensor in a 2nd internal circuit called the pump. This uses current to push o2 into/out of the nernst cell in an attempt to match the reference signal. This takes current, and the current used is measured at the ecu. The ecu then a) uses the data to change injector pulse width and b) creates a obdII compliant voltage signal.

So yes, voltage goes in (and to move, it pulled through via current). The return to the ecu is measured as how much current is left (pulled thru the ecu. By relying on current measurement, the flow rate is consistent once everything reaches temperature.

In any case, the afr guage for NB vs WB are different. Some WB gauges utilize the odbII signal while others can tie directly to the o2 sensor - reading the current. These need to be tuned for each type of WB sensor.


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92RC

Member
Alright Y'all, I'm back after an eventful holiday, I hope everyone is doing well! I've made some progress with the Oxygen sensor, I'll start with the tests. I did buy an old school MultiMeter (Thanks to everyone for suggesting that) and jumpered everything per the service manual's recommendations.



You can see in the picture the needle picked a reading, it was steady when I took that picture (shortly after cold starting the car) but by the time the video camera started rolling it was not reading anything at all. I suspect that was the car going "Wake up sensor! It's time for some sensoring!" and it's been dead for years and years. I continued with the recommendations (for whatever reason the American service manual has the same instructions but the diagrams aren't as useful).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6ZF3_hJrt8o

I just realized right now I didn't count to 120 seconds when maintaining 2,500 RPM but it was about 60 seconds or so, absolutely no activity. Later on are some pictures of the sensor, even if it is reading something I want to replace it anyway, it can't hurt. Don't worry about that engine light, that's a 54 from me bumping a cable, I need to replace a lot of the engine bay plugs.

Just in case if anyone is skeptical about if my multimeter is connected correctly, here's a video of the car starting and stopping with that same jumpered setup, you can see a slight blip on the needle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhSBIUygBCo

So that was about a week ago, I bought the Denso sensor I linked and it came in today, here's some comparisons.




You can't see it super well from my first picture but the new one is pretty much the same dimension below the metal part that attaches to the car, it's slightly shorter than the old one, I wouldn't think that would be a big problem.



The problem is the plug, it ain't the same. This doesn't concern me because on GT4-Play's website it says "Single wire for early JDM MR2 and ST185, You will need to cut off your plug and splice onto the new sensor, ships with crimps"(https://gt4-play.co.uk/shop/denso-02-ox ... st202-5983), that might work well because the old sensor's cable length is perfect but the new one is too long. Has anyone done this? I was thinking I wanted to cut an inch from the old plug and a good length into the new sensor and solder the wire in there (it better be 1 wire in there or so help me) along with some heat shrink tubing but I'm thinking it might be hotter in the engine bay for that to work well. Idk I'm not super great with electrical stuff but I'm getting better, I'm open to ideas regarding best practices.

Also, how is this gasket supposed to go? I noticed both the old one and the new one were "bent", I think the point was facing upwards when I removed it just now, the instructions don't mention this, they only mention using anti seize (I have some copper anti seize that I plan to use).




Also here's the old gasket, supe's rusty.

 

underscore

Well-known member
It's hard to see on my phone, are the actual pins inside the plug the same? If so you might be able to just depin them both and swap the plastic plug over to the new one.
 

92RC

Member
alltracman78":1jijm2g0 said:
Don't cut the wire.
You can remove the connector and install the old one on the new sensor.

underscore":1jijm2g0 said:
It's hard to see on my phone, are the actual pins inside the plug the same? If so you might be able to just depin them both and swap the plastic plug over to the new one.


Ok so I was going to post "how do I disassemble that?" and post https://www.toyota-tech.eu/wire_harness_rm/RM06H0E.pdf mention it has a 10892 stamped on it (which is shown on page 427, and that's discontinued https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toy ... 85L-BLMVZA) blah blah blah.

Spoiler alert, the oxygen sensor is in and it's functioning but I'm going to schedule an appointment with a shop that specializes in emissions and take a test that day, more info below.

Oh and here's what appears to be a diagram of the plug, I tried actually pushing in the part circled before finding this picture (I think I put my little screwdriver in between the metal part and that tab not the other way around) and moving the entire plug down without luck, I was trying to be as careful as possible so I was thinking "if I break this darn thing I'm going to have a really bad time."


So I took the new sensor and made sure it was going to work, I took some wire I had on hand and did this:



I started the car with the multimeter and jumper connected and started holding down the throttle at 2,500 RPM. This time I got out my stopwatch and watched for 2 minutes. About a 1m45s in I was about to give up and I see the multimeter spring up, then down, then start pulsing as described in the repair manual! Wooooo! So I stepped out of the car to inspect my work and the car tried to stall itself after a few seconds. I run back over to the cabin and check the tach and it was seriously trying to idle at 400 RPM (I only fixed the tachometer in July or something but even without reading the number I think it's always idled at about 1,100 RPM since having the car) so I gave it some throttle to help it out but it went back down to 400 or 600 or something (and the exhaust smelled super awful). Shutting off the car and turning it back on didn't fix the problem so I disconnected the negative terminal on the battery for a few minutes.

After that the car started, the multimeter pulsed as before and it idled at 800-900. Great! I took the sensor back off and planned to take the old one apart. I should note here even though I didn't wait the full 2 minutes before calling the old sensor dead the fact the car was adjusting the idle for the first time proved to me the old sensor was kaput.

By the way here's a size comparison if anyone wants it:



I completely mutilated the new plug (because I have no use for it) and exposed this little clamp part.





I noticed after removing the orange dust cover rubber thing from the plug I noticed I had likely exposed the copper from the old wire, so I twisted it a bunch and exposed the clamp thingee that held the wire. I added some marine grade heatshrink tubing to the new wire (it has adhesive built in, shoutout to BosnianBill's YouTube channel for that protip) and continued



I crimped the plug from the new sensor down to a smaller size and shoved it into the spot previously occupied by the old sensor's wire, after multiple attempts (and twisting) I got the new wire to seem like it would reasonably stay put, I have a kinda small pair of needlenose pliers so I was able to get into the plug and clamp down on the plug tighter.



So at the end of the day I'm relying on an OK connection into that plug and the glue on the heatshrink to keep the whole thing together and not move. The plug is far enough away from a massive heat source I would think it should be fine but I'm honestly not super sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaSVkd4ejVw




Adding anti-seize




Torqueing to 44 NM



Time to test! I know the sensor works but of course I needed to see if my plug did. Spoiler, 10 pulses in 10 seconds! Beats the 8 pulse minimum!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w252mpihxrA

My pro zip tie work. Don't worry, I checked for pulses after doing this. All good!



So one closing thought on this reply, I haven't driven the car after making this change so perhaps the exhaust smell will be less apparent after that but since it still smells a bit I'm going to schedule something the day I do the emissions test with a shop that specializes in emissions work. I'm already going to be paying $75 in emissions tests but if there is a problem and it's addressed within 10 days of the last test I don't have to pay for the test again. If I pass I'll cancel the appointment.

I'm out of time for the moment but I'll provide pictures of changing a tube from the Turbo to the chargecooler and the coupler between the chargecooler and the throttle body, I replaced those right before this to prevent the engine from running lean. More info on that soon.
 
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