The truth about ST215 3sgte engine

Yes it has a crank trigger wheel and a VR sensor and a cam angle sensor too, here's some pics of them:

sensor and trigger wheel on oil pump
2.jpg


trigger wheel
3.jpg


cam angle sensor and arm
1.jpg


sensor
4.jpg


Thanks

Pit_celica
 

___Scott___

Active member
Cool!

I assume each tooth represents 10 degrees, so you could probably modify the long tooth to make it into a 36-1 trigger wheel that EDIS uses natively. Since EDIS is wasted spark, you don't need the cam position sensor.
 

allblackalltrac

New member
Stole all this information from the MR2 boards...

Beams 3S-GE
trigger wheel: 13521-88560
angle sensor: 90919-05034

A clearer pic of the trigger wheel

beamspulley.jpg


98+ 3SGTE/5SFE
Oil-pump complete: 15100-74050
trigger wheel: 13521-74040
angle sensor: 90919-05017

Remember that the Beams and the 3-5 gen 3SGTE's use a completely different oil pan/oil pump - 2 piece oil pan. If you want to use the Toyota trigger wheel and sensor and need an oil pump cover for the 2G 3SGTE get one from the latest Solara.

Notice the recess for the sensor...you only need the cover, the 2G 3S oil pump gear has 27 teeth, the 3G 3S oil pump gear has 25 teeth, the Solara 5S oil pump gear has 25 teeth.
So either get just the oil pump cover or swap the gears.

5sfe_op_1.jpg


Here is a somewhat clearer example of the newer Solara 5S oil pump compaired to the older Celica/MR2 3S oil pump.

3_4586c93be4516.jpg


pit_celica, do you have a part number for the 4G 3SGTE oil pump, trigger wheel and angle sensor? Can you count how many teeth there are on the 4G 3SGTE oil pump gear?
 
Thanks for the information and for the nice pics allblackalltrac. Here's the part numbers that you requested for the 4th gen 3sgte :

oil pump : 15100-88560 and 15100-88561
trigger wheel : 13521-88560*
angle sensor : 90919-05034


*the trigger wheel and the crankshaft gear can't be separate

The oil pump gear has 27 teeths. Tell me if you can find some other information with these part numbers.

Thanks for the idea __Scott__, I never think at it. I got the EDIS4 system uninstalled in my garage. This system include the stock VR sensor from Ford Escort. I think that I'll try to use the Toyota crank sensor if I can. It will be a lot easier to use the stock one than building a mount for the new sensor and to mount a new 36-1 wheel on my crank pulley. I'll make some experiences on the both sensors and if I can adapt the Toyota one, I'll be very happy.

So thanks guys for your help and I'm waiting for other information about "my mystical egine" LOL ;).

Pit_celica
 

allblackalltrac

New member
Interesting to note that the trigger wheel and sensor are the same as the Beams motors. Even more interesting is that the 4G 3SGTE uses 27 teeth, same as the 2G 3SGTE oil pump gear but the 3G 3S oil pump gear uses 25...maybe it has to do with the fact that I counted the number of teeth on my 3G 3SGE and not on the 3G 3SGTE....further inspection is needed.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Hi all.

I've just found this thread, and wanted to make you aware of incorrect information that i've found out from first hand experience.

1. there's no such thing as a Gen V in the ST246, it is an identical motor to that in the ST215 including power (ie 191kW)

2. the 7 stud exhaust manifold in the early (series 1 1997-2000) ST215 was changed back to an 8 stud like all previous 3S-GTEs in the series 2 ST215 to fix a random & rare cracking problem.

3. the exhaust manifolds from the ST215 will fit other 3S-GTEs (you will need to remove the extra exhaust stud from the "8th" hole so it will bolt up to the head. How it fits into your engine bay, that's your problem. And has been said, the port sizes are different.

4. the only difference between the ST205 intake camshaft & the ST215 intake camshaft is the end where the distributor was removed to make way for a sensor. Lobe profiles are identical

Personally, I'm not happy with the top mounted interheater on my ST215, but I also don't want to extend the intake length by adding a front mount.
Quite a few of these are now being imported in Australia, and I even know of someone in Brazil who did a LHD conversion on his ST215 import. :shock:
 
Hi, thanks for you post man, but I'll show you some facts that prove you wrong on some points :

1-

Here's a ST215 engine bay :

RIMG1101%20(Small).JPG


Here's a ST246 engine bay :

24208d1196867837-toyota-caldina-gt-t-03caldina-engine640.jpg


As you can see : different air to air intercooler. Maybe not a completely other engine, but some minor esthetic differences.

Maybe the same power, but it's the very same engine. Some minor differences between ST215 and ST246.

An other thread about ST215 vs ST246 :

http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=349341

2- Maybe, but I would want some comparision pics to prove it.

3- False, gen 1 and 2 3sgte exhaust manifold bolt pattern and hole spacing are different from gen 3 and 4. So, you cannot bolt a gen 3 or gen 4 exhaust manifold on a gen 1 or 2 head. This is proven, do a little more search on this.

4- True.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
1. They may look cosmetically different, and that's not surprising considering the bodyshell is different, but someone else posted above about the later motor having more power, and therefore would be preferable for a conversion. It would be preferable because it's newer and therefore more likely to have lower usage, but not because it has more power, and because they're auto only, they have less use.

2. proven fact. The nearest Series 2 ST215 (2001 model) to me is 1000km away, so its a bit hard to get a photo & also seeing as the "8th" hole is the top one hiding behind the alternator, extremely difficult to get a photo of. The Series 1 head does have the stud hole already in the head (so allowing a "fix" to the later version if it cracks), but the exhaust flange has no provision for it :shrug: New Zealand forums are good for finding out stuff on JDM cars as they get them imported (and modified) and put mileage on them usually well before any other country.

3. whoops sorry, I meant that Gen IV & Gen III manifold were interchangeable. ie an ST205 manifold can be fitted to an ST215 engine to allow "easier" changing of the turbo. Thanks for pointing that out.

BTW after 1 year of ownership of my manual ST215 (it's now my second Caldina), I've added 40000km to it. When you do that kind of mileage, its important to know what can possibly go wrong with them. :wink:
 

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lumbercis

Moderator
Re: the ST215/ST246 debate, they are not identical. The ST246 went back to a center-feed manifold and also was available as Auto-only whereas the ST215 can occasionally be found as a manual. There are other minor differences, but it's arguable whether those differences are significant. I can't find any definitive reference that says that they don't make the same power though.

For a more detailed rundown of the differences, check this thread on mr2oc:
http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=3 ... ht=caldina
 

Killtodie

New member
I am looking to buy a Caldina motor. ECU, Harness, top mount IC. The works.
From my understanding the ST215 motor drops in, and bolts right up with no modification except for different IC, intake plumbing, and exhaust.

What is the biggest challenge to complete this? I am trying to work out a place to get this done, and only have a spot for 3 days. At bare minimum I need the engine in, and running to street park the car, and figure the rest out later.
 

abraxxa

Member
I've done this, built a stroked one based on a ST215 engine.
Mechanically everything is fine, the engine mounts fit, the transmission too.
I'm not entirely sure about the intake and exhaust headers because I've used the ST215 intake header and got a custom made exhaust header.
You lose the dizzy so you need a standalone ECU or you use the ST215 ECU which might be a problem if it was an automatic.
It has no oil level sensor in the oil pan so the oil warning light will be on if you don't install a resistor.
The water temp sensor in the water outlet is different, it has three pins instead of two sensors, one with two and one with a single pin.
I think the electronics are more work than the actual swap.
 
You could get it in physically in that amount of time without much problem. The wiring is the big thing so if you are restrained to 3 days start to out the door running you need to send your caldina harness and your 165 harness off to someone to modify/mate them. I got the mechanical stuff all swapped to my Camry in only a few days but messing with and learning the differences in the wiring and teaching myself how to read wiring diagrams and stuff took a long while.
You will have to swap at least the passenger side mount from the 165 over and I think possibly the front also. I have only put 215 into ST184 Celica and the SV25 Camry so I am not positive on the mounts for yours. The downpipe has a different flange on the bottom, but you could easily start it up and drive it without hooking the exhaust up. I think what a lot of guys do is cut off the flange from their 165 or 185 downpipe and weld it to the 215 one and problem solved. I am about to deal with that myself so if I get that done I will give you more insight on that. There are several companies that make bolt on downpipes if you do not want to deal with that. TCS makes a 3 inch full stainless which looks to be the best. There are always little things that you cannot plan for.... I can't even remember all the little things that had to be swapped around or tweaked a little. I think its almost an impossible goal to do the entire thing and be driving in 3 days in my opinion.
 

underscore

Well-known member
The only way you could confidently attempt it in 3 days is to take a running, driving swap out of another of your gen.
 

GT4times2

Moderator
Not impossible to do it in 3 days with everything lined up (which will require more than 3 days to coordinate and source), but Murphy's Law will show you who's King!! :D

Realistically speaking and not being a Debbie downer, it will be hard to get it done in 3 days. (Everything would have to be ready before you get the spot)
You have to source all the parts, make sure the engine you're getting has all sensors, the harness is clean and make sure all is complete. If you plan on getting maintenance parts for the engine, you have to wait for those and to make sure everything fits, you have to do some work there as well.

*Keep your ST165/ST185 mounts intact. Transfer them onto the ST215.
*There are a few experienced guys that do harness work. It may take you a week or so to get the harness back to have a plug and play affair. (Depending on their workload). You won't need an aftermarket EMS. Check out Wiregap or Dr. Tweak. Email them and decide who you would prefer working with. That will simplify your swap.
*If you have an ST165, you'll have to find a way to relocate your intercooler or cut your hood (unless tastefully done, try not to :( )
*ST185, you'll be ok with the top mount unless you want to go FMIC
*The ST215 has a decent bolt-on aftermarket. (shop around. Some shops carry a good amount of parts for the ST215)

You'll enjoy the engine once in. But plan wisely if you only have 3 days to get it all done. Best of luck!
 

alltracman78

Active member
GT4times2":33mkme70 said:
*ST185, you'll be ok with the top mount unless you want to go FMIC

From everything I've read the intercooler won't fit under the 185 hood. I don't remember if that was just the ST215 or the ST246 also.
This was the main reason I went with a 205 set.

For the record, I've never done this, so if someone has actually done it and can confirm the hood will close completely with no cutting please correct me.
 

Killtodie

New member
abraxxa":254m0bcm said:
T215 ECU which might be a problem if it was an automatic.

How is that a problem?


My friend who is giving me the spot in his garage can do all the wire work, welding, hood cutting. But at a later time, I just need the new engine in, and the car ready to start and move to another parking lot.

He can then come in and hook up the sensors, fit the exhaust, figure out the hood vent situation later. just cant leave a non running car in his garage.
Car will start and drive without oil pressure senders, coolant temp, etc.
Any work to the throttle cable?
 

CSAlltrac

New member
Stock ATA IC does NOT fir under 185 hood. Bracing does have to be cut out, the stock ATA sucks bad anyways. Not worth cutting a hood up IMO.
 

GT4times2

Moderator
Mine fit. I will reinstall it and double check. I'm pretty sure it does. Now, is it a clearance issue with the RC/CS hood affecting fitment?

I still have the stock All-Trac hood for now. And, I do agree with not cutting the hood. Unless you have some really nice vent set up for it, try not to hack it.
Killtodie":137xzqgj said:
abraxxa":137xzqgj said:
T215 ECU which might be a problem if it was an automatic.

How is that a problem?


My friend who is giving me the spot in his garage can do all the wire work, welding, hood cutting. But at a later time, I just need the new engine in, and the car ready to start and move to another parking lot.

He can then come in and hook up the sensors, fit the exhaust, figure out the hood vent situation later. just cant leave a non running car in his garage.
Car will start and drive without oil pressure senders, coolant temp, etc.
Any work to the throttle cable?

About the ECU, it does not matter. I am running an Auto ECU. If you have Doug at Wiregap do it for you, just let him know.

Also to save time and headaches (since you have a 3 day deadline to do it), I'd suggest sending it to the pros to save on the headaches and second guessing.

It'll save you a lot of aggravation, money and time. It'll be a PnP affair. Don't forget to get yourself a tach adapter once you get the harness back.
 
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