Component Vs. Coaxial

pinoyGT4":2b9bneze said:

ooooooohhhhhh i see now...

is it cold where you live?

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Sometimes its cold. Generally its pretty decent weather. Temp ranges between 5 and 25C with slight +/- variations on either side of that temp range.
I've actually been looking for small electric heaters on the side to heat the cabin. But apart from that, I'm just focussing on the engine bay at the mo.

shadowlife25":2vn27w26 said:

Why bother with a rear stage at all?

I eliminated my rear stage entirely and literally NO ONE can tell the rear drivers aren't there.

I personally feel that the rear stage makes it way too difficult to accurately reproduce a clean signal.

I have been an audiophile/enthusiast for a decently long time now.

I feel that properly matched components and a proper tune will always net the better result.

Of course there is the issue of placement, which is huge, but in this case we are not dealing with that aspect.
If you insist on using the factory front tweeter location, find a set of tweeters that have good off axis performance.

Crossover networks are a massive determining factor in proper sonic accuracy as well.

A couple members here have ridden in my car.
I'll leave it to them to give their impressions.

I am definitely more so SQ oriented than SPL, however a little "bump" is always nice.

In the end, brand/price/etc.. are all subjective.
What matters is what sounds great to YOU?

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Mario,

I had no idea you were into SQ also. What's your setup?

Strangely enough, the rear stage in my car sounds really, really nice when looking at DVD's!

Other than that, for competition, I turn them off for the most part, or have them just barely on for some rear fill to give some field depth to low percussion instruments like bass toms and kick drum.

I don't think anyone here has ever heard my system since I live outside N.A. but my system was self-tuned using an R.T.A and my digital EQ was set with some time alignment between the front and rear speakers.

rear speakers are generally used for ambient sound. Attentuated, they provide more of a foundation to the image if your front stage is mechanically and electronically aligned properly

DeeCee":jw401plk said:

rear speakers are generally used for ambient sound. Attentuated, they provide more of a foundation to the image if your front stage is mechanically and electronically aligned properly

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You are describing "rear fill" yes?

I personally don't bother any longer. I have found that with a properly set up front stage, all the "fill" you need is a subwoofer to give some depth.
Anything more ends up cluttering the sound stage. Even with high end electronic x-over networks it is incredibly difficult to get the time alignment properly dialed in for a rear stage.

It is more my specialty to develop a front stage so that it "engulfs" the listener.

As I mentioned, no one who has listened to my system has yet to realize there are no rear drivers until after I point it out.

Another large issue is the disturbing trend of the last few years to purposely introduce distortion into the recording.
Makes it maddening to get a system dialed in. It may not be your cup of tea, but no one records like Phil Collins/Genesis/Queen anymore.

If anyone is interested, I have about 10 different car audio competition master recordings from the likes of JL, Focal, Eclipse
and may others as well as a nice selection of audiophile recordings by various artists.
If anyone would like them, I can be of assistance.

For reference, my system consists of:

Illusion Audio ND8's
Rainbow MKII Extreme 4's
Seas Neo tweets
Illusion Audio ND10

Eclipse CD7000
Eclipse IPC105
Eclipse silver series 5 ch

Monster Cable RCA's (6ch)
0ga power/gnd (Phoenix gold)
14ga speaker wires
TechFlex wire sleeving

Any questions, feel free to ask.

- Mario

Not rear fill. Ambient sound. There is a difference. Reflection of the sound to incorporate resonance into the music as an overlay to induce the sense of space. Just like a normal room or music hall.

Yes I know about distortion in recordings - metallica example is prominent in any audiophiles discussion on studio recording techniques.
I have around 70 audiophile albums - and each one is as boring as the other. Great for testing out systems, but I def don't listen to them on a daily basis. I am particularly sick of Sheffiled Labs MyDisc CD103, which we used to judge SQ systems here in NZ for 3 years. Its always a sign when you can recite the left/centre/right channel voice over :lol:

Recently installed some DLS A3's and some custom built Arvus speakers into a 2000 Jaguar last week. Not bad sound, but i'll have to tune it for music once I remote mount the face of the alpine touchscreen and get the h700 processor put in.

My cupboard is pretty bare nowadays. Morel Supremos, custom Arvus components, Hybrid Audio Legatias, Nakamichi etc graced the cupboard. Now its only a couple of sets of JVC woodcones, a naka amp, Clarion HX-D20L and whatever I have in the work car at the mo (Sony XES M3s, Image Dynamics, Pioneer 9450), cept for the subs for SPL (RE Audio MTs, Sundowns).

My friends run all sorts of gear. Clarion HXD2s, DLS Nobeliums and Iridums, Pioneer P90s etc etc.

I must say though, it is an addictive hobby. Its been 13 years since I started this. I've pretty much done it all, write ruleset and establish SQ competition in NZ, won events in SQ and SPL, become a retailer and installer. Currently I'm installing a set of custom built Arvus components into a 2004 WRX. Pretty easy install at the mo. Made up the A piller tweeter mounts in a night. Getting in the 7" mid is a little bit of a bitch, but in my mind i've already sorted it out.

Its always fun to have pics

Re Audio MT18 (under the hat if you can see it ), RE Audio XXX12v4, Sony M3 in the background upside down and the A pillers I recently did for the WRX


Arvus 6" components (7" frame) - use a neodynium magnet


JVC 5.25" woodcone speakers - comes in a large case


highlighted badging


And the speakers themselves.


I have one set of woodcones in some custom cabinets at a friends place for evaluation. These speakers are so intolerant of any distorted music. When you listen to Queen or Collins, the tweeter is clear and concise without being fatiguing. The set really shine on acoustic instruments.

Damn audiophileness.. a deal came up that I can't pass up: Pioneer RS-D7X + RS-P70X II for cheap! So much for extra parts for the Celica.

We HAVE to discuss this more! I love having other audio nuts to talk with .

DeeCee":3vp42oon said:

Not rear fill. Ambient sound. There is a difference. Reflection of the sound to incorporate resonance into the music as an overlay to induce the sense of space. Just like a normal room or music hall.

Yes I know about distortion in recordings - metallica example is prominent in any audiophiles discussion on studio recording techniques.
I have around 70 audiophile albums - and each one is as boring as the other. Great for testing out systems, but I def don't listen to them on a daily basis. I am particularly sick of Sheffiled Labs MyDisc CD103, which we used to judge SQ systems here in NZ for 3 years. Its always a sign when you can recite the left/centre/right channel voice over :lol:

Recently installed some DLS A3's and some custom built Arvus speakers into a 2000 Jaguar last week. Not bad sound, but i'll have to tune it for music once I remote mount the face of the alpine touchscreen and get the h700 processor put in.

My cupboard is pretty bare nowadays. Morel Supremos, custom Arvus components, Hybrid Audio Legatias, Nakamichi etc graced the cupboard. Now its only a couple of sets of JVC woodcones, a naka amp, Clarion HX-D20L and whatever I have in the work car at the mo (Sony XES M3s, Image Dynamics, Pioneer 9450), cept for the subs for SPL (RE Audio MTs, Sundowns).

My friends run all sorts of gear. Clarion HXD2s, DLS Nobeliums and Iridums, Pioneer P90s etc etc.

I must say though, it is an addictive hobby. Its been 13 years since I started this. I've pretty much done it all, write ruleset and establish SQ competition in NZ, won events in SQ and SPL, become a retailer and installer. Currently I'm installing a set of custom built Arvus components into a 2004 WRX. Pretty easy install at the mo. Made up the A piller tweeter mounts in a night. Getting in the 7" mid is a little bit of a bitch, but in my mind i've already sorted it out.

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Haha, yeah that Sheffiled Labs MyDisc CD103 is just annoying after the millionth time you have HAD to listen to it. But that's the downside of comps right?
I used to have all the new and great goodies as well, you mentioned a few, but hard times means getting rid of toys

I know the owner of Sundown and a couple fellas that work at RE as well. Nice people.

I love most of the ID line of drivers, great build quality. I used a set of CX64's (I think?) for a while and they were great to listen to.
The HA Legatias are a great selection as well. Unfortunately there isn't room in the 'Trac for a build that would showcase them at the moment.

What I would love to get my hands on though is an Xtant 8ch modular amp. I have lusted over one of those for YEARS.

The new Genesis line is pretty good as well, though honestly out of my $ range.

Never had any experience with Avrus. You will have to give your impressions after install and break in period.

- Mario

Arvus is a New Zealand company that builds custom drivers. They tried to get into the car audio market, but mass manufacturing failed with bad tolerances and equipment not up to specs so they shelved that idea. They are now predominantly R&D now maintaining their old home audio roots as well as supplying other companies like Theophany with speakers:
http://www.arvusloudspeakers.com/
http://www.theophanyloudspeakers.com/

See if you can find the "bladder buster" - 6x 12's using a 27" passive radiator - that is the big boy of arvus of old lol.

The handful of Arvus equipment that I see is coveted by the locals a) because its custom b) because its scarce.
I myself have owned 2 sets over the years - 2 way and 3 way.

Arvus is very neutral sounding. When it all comes together they just do things so well, but it may not seem like it to the normal listener because nothing immediately stands out. Its more succinct with all the minute detail that is transparent in the music.

Yeah, Jacob's a nice guy. I'm his dist. here in NZ. Though I haven't been able to push much stuff on because premium car audio is rather dead here in NZ. And I deal with Nick and Scott at Ascendant/Fi as my friend/Fi dist. is friends with Scott. RE went down the gurgler when Scott sold out to the new owners and now with less quality in recent products IMO.
I have the ID CXS in a dual midbass single tweet combo in the forester/daily running 500w between mids and 150 into the tweet, so 650 per side. M3's run them in channel seperated active setup.

Genesis is pretty expensive anywhere lol. I always wanted to lay my hands on the Zapco line.
Mainly I've focussed on source and ensuring lack of distortion on the signal via cables and amps introducing response variations. Clean everything all the way up to the speakers and its all good. An amp is just an amp lol. Cable is just cable. As long as no sonic artifacts are introduced then no worries in my books.

And there is room in the Celica. You just have to get inventive like I did lol. Considering the factory door speaker was 8", and on my celica, the door access holes were covered with metal panels already, its a great start. Only issue is the lack of depth on the dash and the way the dash is formed. Creates hard left right bias if tweets mounted up high.
I built the sub in the dash as you can see in the pic above. I built a dash pod to move the stereo up so its more in line with the drivers field of view instead of looking down. I've tested speaker reflection theories in the celica and played with dash mounts and floor mounts. Its amazing how hard near field acoustics is. Always something that will throw your thinking sideways and make you think more and more.

I think the best one was when I was testing the most optimal speaker placement for best stage. 9" Arvus mids sitting on the floor in front of drivers seat pointed up to the windscreen and 3" mids on the drivers arm rest pointing into the windscreen as well. Image was on the bonnet without any time alignment. Depth was just amazing - and all in near field, no electronic wizardry to get it there. Balanced for two seat listening.

So my Celica wil be setup for ultimate SQ with some heavy hitting as well. Custom dash incorporating vertical array, cabin designed for best SQ possible in the trac. Lots of work, but I'm sure I'll love the challenge. The celica has been on the design cards for the better part of 5 years now lol.

Wow! I would love for you to share photos with me if you wouldn't mind. I love seeing others projects and learning a thing or two along the way.

I have not gotten anywhere near actually cutting into the 'Trac yet. All my staging is due to an amazingly flexible active x-over setup.

For a while I have wanted "more" out of the setup I have. But times are quite tough at the present. Maybe next year.

And I think you're right about RE/Fi and the quality going down after the transfer. Sad to see. Still better than most big box store offerings any day though.

Wow you guys are awesome, and Dee Cee, props to you man; you're eons ahead of where I am. You remind me of my friend over here who is the local DLS distributor and an IASCA certified judge. He actually has been on the panel of the IASCA world finals for the past 4-5 years now and always has lots of nice pics to share when he gets home.

My background is in Studio Recording, not even Home Theatre...most think they are the same but are worlds apart.

I don't know how my Boston comps will hold out to the DLS mid-level line but I know that my friends Nobeliums destroy my bostons. lol...but they should, being about 3 times as expensive. I think the nobelium is an excellent rival to the morels I hear locally.

A guy is after my pair of Coustic amps and I'm getting a good deal on a Boston GT50 amp (5 Ch. if no one is familiar) so I may just move across to one amp and prolly try to get a single 10 or 12" sub. If I can go with a full Boston system I'd love to see how it would sound.

Do any of you guys have any experience with Boston Acoustics and what do you think of them? Bang for buck I absolutely heart them!

A friend has the nobelium components in his wrx sti spec C. Tweet is nice, though not as warm as I want it but the midbass is really lacking IMO. I'm pointing the deficiencies based on the install more than anything.

I've heard lots of Boston over the years and tbh, its never really impressed me. Talk more later as its late, but we'll be going back towards your recording background

Mario - ODR biatch! mwahahahahaha. Damn - two high end units sitting in the cupboard. What to do, what to do.. 8)

Dee Cee, it may just be my wax-filled ears but I like the level of warmth that the Bostons give, while maintaining budget-minded clarity. I really cannot see myself spending behind Morels or any other similar high end....I'd faster spend it behind my studio. As a matter of fact, I'm considering purchasing a new pair of headphones...looking at the D2000 Denon. A friend has a PS1000 Grado he's willing to let go but unless I can recoup that investment within the next couple of jobs, it seems the Denon is more likely the route I'll go.

Anyway, back to mobile audio, what are your opinions (all of you) on the following:

Stetsom amps
Morel speakers
Sundown audio eqpt.
Cactus amps (for spl of course)

These are what the locals who win events over here use. Just wondering if they were popular still in the US.

No time for a real reply at the moment as I am off to work soon!

I will check back later this evening.

- Mario

PS. DeeCee:

Ah - SPL. The technical fun of it all lol.
Stetsom - great for the power, use some very clever switching power circuits inside the amp to get the power, but I've known a few people who have had issues.
Apparently they aren't that great for daily, but in terms of pure SPL power for burps, they are hard to beat for power/cost ratio. A friend has a couple of stetsoms over here and one's already broken after his initial testing/playing around. He fixes amps, so its no issue for him. But if they do fail, then you have to find a repairer who can do the job (one who I know of already)
Cactus - powerwise great, standard class D without the trick switching circuits. I don't know many people that are using them due to availability and cost
Sundown - as a distributor, I may be biased, but standard class D with great power output. Solid amp and Jacob is great to deal with. You'll love the service and support side if you go to sundown.

SQ - morel - lovely speakers. IMO, better than the bostons.

Just of interest, what are your aims here, and are they in the Celica? SQ, SPL or street beat.
I'm asking before we delve too far into each side as having clear goals or direction is best. Based on my experience with SQ and SPL incl a Lada Niva with a wall of 2x Re Audio MT18s, 4kw and 1 datasafe hx400 hitting 152.6db, then you really have to differentiate between balls to the wall SPL, street beat applications and SQ.

As you know, everyone hears differently, so each to their own with regards to the Bostons. If you like what you hear, then go for them.
They just never appealed to me after hearing sets of Z6's etc.

The application and speaker choice between studio, home and car is very similar. We really only differentiate when it comes to environment and near and far field listening. Love the sound of Grado's myself, but I've only listened to sr80i's

With your recording background, you would probably have a stronger foundation for listening and acoustic fundamentals. Application of those fundamentals would give you an advantage in knowing what you want out of a system and how to get it.

All in all, its about how far you are willing to go, how much money you have and what you are willing to do to get your sound.
One friend went to the extreme of buying a basic car and applying everything he knows into a test vehicle to test his theories with. We're talking centre vertical array with 6x 3" mids in multi channel system using computers to tailor and tweak the sound. All custom built drivers and around 11 amplifiers (at last count) with lead and other acoustic deadening materials used throughout the car. Lets just say, it is insane lol. They guy was even debating about using non linear compensators / passive radiators over his head, mounted in the headlining for bass lol.

I completely agree about the Morels, beautiful sound. Made in Israel I believe no?

I am also a fan of some of the Peerless line, though they are priced more around a high end big box driver, they will not disappoint.
For other more mainstream brands, I find that MB Quarts are much too piercing in their high end and do not have smooth enough roll off for my taste.
When searching for my tweeters I finally settled on the Seas neo line. Great off axis performance and a nice price. So, great bang for the buck.

My Rainbow MKII Extremes (4") are a great driver with a response curve that lends itself well to the car audio environment.
They also handle a decent amount of power, so transients are not as much of an issue once everything is dialed.
My only regret in using them is that by necessity, I have to cross them over much too high to match them to my tweeters.
This is due to only having 6 channels to tinker with in my x-over. I realistically need another amplifier solely to power the tweeters.
Then I could x the Rainbows down (comfortably) as low as 300Hz, which would be great in matching them with the 8's in the doors.

Though I now have no "toys" to swap out in my audio selection any longer, I will in the near future be playing more with custom placements in the ST185.
I am and have mainly always been SQ oriented. I don't need it to be ear-splittingly loud. Just loud enough for me and clear as crystal.

There is however a downside to an SQ tailored system:
You can hear EVERYTHING in the recording.
I mean like the singer taking a breath that you NEVER heard before with a different system.
Or a guitarist sliding their hand along the base of the guitar bridge to mute a note.
These things are by themselves wonderful.
On the opposite end though, any noise in the system or any bad recording will be magnified.

The Illusion Audio line (ND series) that I use was truly ahead of it's time and the price reflected this.
Super shallow design with a fron mounted Neodymium magnet assembly and carbon fiber cones...
Very nice. Hand assembled and impedance matched by a human being. That says something.
They are however a bit dated. They play clear as a bell for the most part.
However, they do not have quite enough low end "grunt" to them. They fill the low end nicely, but they
are a true midbass. Even the "subs" are truly midbass drivers. They are simply not capable of hitting the lows
of a dedicated subwoofer. Keep in mind that my experience with these only consists of the available sizes up through the 10".
The 12" may well have been much better suited to the task, but I could never find one and the size constraints of the ST185,
and needing to keep the spare tire make for limited stock placement options.

I think my next audio endeavor will be creating custom fiberglass enclosures for the hatch area of my ST185 to suit 2 10" drivers.
I am a bit strange about this car though, I like anything I do to remain mostly unnoticed and remain as unobtrusive as possible.

Looking forward to your next replies gentlemen.

- Mario

points to note before i go out to the garage.
1) you have to consider road noise and methods to dissipate it in the cabin. We drive cars, not sit in cars while stationary and listen to our systems (one of key issues i had with SQ comps)
2) how far is one willing to go to get the sound they want? time, budget, compromising how the vehicle is used to gain best installation
3) what do you really want out of this.

Over the years, my friends and I have setup some pretty mean systems in our respective vehicles.
At the end of the day, we all just want to drive along with some great sounding music. Note - I said "while driving".
You can't hear a the top end of a harp while whizzing down the motorway or travelling through the country (we have coarse gravel chip seal here in NZ as a friction surface for a lot of roading surfaces) as there is tyre, engine, exhaust noise to contend with.

At some point, you'll have to say - this is the point where I will get up to. This is the point that I'll spend money elsewhere in the home (or studio in Ralph's case).

Loading cars full of acoustic treatments just weighs down the cars. You may as well start with a decent platform from the start instead of buying lots of dynamat etc and buy a BMW (they use extensive closed cell foam in the cabin to reduce road noise) if you want a dedicated SQ car.

Figure out what you want, what you will do or pay to get there and enjoy the end results.
Remember that SQ is the worst trainspotting geek hobby to have, but we are more practical than home audio geeks, so don't fall into the home audio geek traps of believing all the bull that is passed out.

Mario - you have these reference?


Real Morel is built in Israel.

Completely agree about the car being in motion and not only stationary. Mine is deadened quite well. You still hear my highs come through though.

I had at one point those Peerless drivers. I sold them to another enthusiast who wanted to give them a try.

I honestly want to replace my Illusion Mids with Alpine Type R 6.75" series from about 8 years ago. I think they would work well.

Just chiming in here again guys.

My aim for the car is to compete in the IASCA Rookie Class of the SQ this year - I spoke to the main local IASCA rep/judge and he said there would be no SQ events before Easter so that gives me sufficient time to get the system to where I want it.

I'm not into spending a crapload behind the system in the car (celica) as it is being built for auto-x and as such, it will be loud (engine and exhaust noise). The car is also not going to be my daily driver, but a street/weekend warrior machine.

The thing is though, before I made the decision to build the car for auto-x, I had high hopes of it being an all-round daily driver with a good bang for buck audio system.

The Bostons are loud and clear and fitted my budget quite well so I went with them. I need a good head unit with a good line drive though. Either that or I'll buy an Audio Control EQL that will up the line signal into the amp.

I totally agree with you all about the audio being designed for driving and not just static listening with the car off, but I also at the same time, have an ear for detail. The problem with the local guys here is that they focus too much on imaging and not on tonal accuracy; they behave as if all they listen to are SQ test discs, but as you said, when you play music from other sources, and recorded in different formats by different producers, it all sounds quite different. You may have excellent imaging but when playing music it sounds like crap.

Would like to hear your thoughts on imaging vs. tonal accuracy and how you all achieve the best of both.

Cheers.