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Visual Styling, Spoilers, and rims
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 8:24 pm

2 of them are in the U.S. and 1 is in Japan. (VARIS)

As I posted at the top, I'll get estimates and all the info and probably post a poll in here to decide who to use. Freight from Japan on these shouldn't be a factor money-wise because the company I work for brings over 40-ft containers from Japan every 3-4 weeks.

Anyhow, I am pretty sure VARIS will be the most expensive either way. It's OEM quality (they make OEM parts for Toyota all the time) and once I get all the pricing, you guys can decide if it's worth it.
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 8:45 pm

If you can produce a nice stock looking kit for a reasonable price, I may be interested. But I would also be interested in rear flares, since I am still standing by my statement of the track being shorter in the rear. I would like the flares to look just like the stock flares, but protrude more. I think it could be done, and not effect the bumper lineup and such. I would concider going to larger wheels for racing if I can get front and rear flares. I would love to see front flares simular to those on the messiah kit. :evil:

Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:33 am


I managed a measuring tape to the front and rear tracks and to my amazement, you're definately right about the rear having a shorter wheelbase. (by about an inch and a half)

I can only assume this was done to help the car handle. It helps the car oversteer. My guess is that the front weight and stiffness of our cars are the main factors in the car understeering in stock form. I've tuned my suspension to be as stiff as possible to the rear and left the front of my car stock with the exception of the side-tower braces and it's much more neutral than in stock form.


This raises two questions....

1.) Should we even try to use 4 identical wheels and keep the shorter wheelbase in the rear or should we use wheels with a 25-35mm smaller offset in the rear. (this does explain the ability to run a 17x10 +5 in the rear a bit more)

2.) Should I even bother trying to have these fenders made if you are correct about the fenders alread being equal??

Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:09 pm

As far as the logic of toyota making the rear short, who knows. I read one article online claiming that toyota made the 185 have more understeer then the 165. One theroy is that for people with less driving skills. Understeer is easier corrected then oversteer.

Next read my post here.
This is what I tested using 2 different wheel spacers.

Bringing out the rear wheels to the same as the front with a 25mm spacer will induce oversteer.
The characteristics I experienced was that the car turned in sharper, and coming out of the turn the rear would throtle out and keep the car from going into oversteer.

I thought the front wheels looked to far tucked in so I bought an 8mm spacer. Installed it on the front. (Needed to be more like .5" for looks)
SO I took the car for a test drive. The wider track in the front made the car grip alot better. It took a bit more push to make the front plow. BUT, it was not oversteer. The rear never came around. It just made the car go where you pointed it. It was less pleasing to drive, even though it handled faster. It seemed to jsut drag teh rear around.

So I took it home, and put the 8mm spacers on the rear with the 25mm spacers, thinking that it would increase oversteer. It did not. It actually increased understeer. And I lost the limits that were obtained with the spacer in the front.

So it would seem to me, that the wheels need to be close to equal in track width. Then the car releys on the suspension setup to determine the over/understeer.

Might explain why the TTE car, and other Scca rally gt4's have the same track width. Also the wider the track the better the grip. That is one reason the wheels shouldgo close to the outside of the fenders. That and it looks good too.

Some cars react differently to certain suspension tuning. Most handling books and artlices are gearded torwards rwd cars. It is proven that one thing that works on one car may do the opposite on another.
I think the gt4 needs a nuetral track and reley on the suspension and rear lsd for tuning the handling. In my experience with my car this seems to work. Though with everyone having different parts and setups it may prove different.

It may be worth making the fenders still. I leanred that the handling limits of bringing the front out do increase handling speed, but it does not indue the same ovesteer I have expereneced eith a nuetral track.

The stock fenders are fairly light as well, so FG will not be a huge weight inmprovement.
I would suggest just having them flared slightly for wheel fitment. I think my next season I am keeping the 7" wide wheels till I can get a sponsor to help pay for the goodies that you offer. Then I will go 9" wide, unless I do the fender flaring.

On the note of a wider front.
SBcelicagt, you can just use wider alltrac/gts fenders in the front.

Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:52 am

Coldiron, yes, I realized that and already have planned to pick up a set from TAP next time I am up in the bay area. I didn't think 245's would fit on the GT-S/Alltrac without modification.

Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:28 pm

What are your plans for running such a large front?

Also if your interested, savage makes rear flares for narrow body celicas.

That is why the convertable in the savage pics has such wide wheels in the rear.


That may not be in your plans as far as handling goes.
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