MWP's wannabe Tarmac Rally 5S-GTE ST185 (racing!)

MWP

New member
Did some mods on the Cometic 5S head gasket this arvo.
The ST205 gasket allows for a decent amount more flow... hopefully the reduced flow of the 5S gasket wont be a problem.

This is what the 5S gasket looks like now with a couple of extra coolant holes, and some of the existing small holes opened up.

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ST205 gasket:
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MWP

New member
More done...

First time anyone has had a Caldina head on a 5S block?
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Gearbox wont fit, block webbing in the way :(
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Easily fixed with help of an angle grinder :)
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Just enough clearance to fit a sheet of paper between.
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All loaded up, off to the engine builder :D
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MWP

New member
Normal 5S stroke and 87.5mm bore, so a tad over normal 5S capacity... 2195cc or something like that.
 

MWP

New member
phattyduck":140kxsl9 said:
Gen2 Camry trunk! Shouldn't that be listed as your daily driver? :shrug: :D

... youre a freak to identify the car by that! :p

Actually you USA'ians would know it better as an ES250 i think.
Its a VZV21R.
 

l0ch0w

New member
I would seriously consider switching to a caldina oil pump, upper section oil pan, crank sensor, and crankshaft timing gear...

The gen IV has the highest volume flow of any of the 3s/5s pumps and its got the correct location for the crank position sensor. You can actually order these from the dealership at a reasonable price.

Your Water pump will work just fine, but you need to be sure to use gen 3 hardlines, and then fabricate them to bypass your oil cooler.

Check out MR2Josh's build out on the mr2oc, hes doing a gen 3 head onto a 5s block with a gen 4 oil pan and pump. The caldina head is almost identical to the gen 3 head except for the TDC sensor and distributor delete.
 

MWP

New member
l0ch0w":35ha6xh0 said:
The gen IV has the highest volume flow of any of the 3s/5s pumps and its got the correct location for the crank position sensor. You can actually order these from the dealership at a reasonable price.

Since when?
Ive been researching this build for the last year, and this is the first time anyone has ever said anything about the gen4 oil pump being the best.

Why do you say the gen4 has the "correct position" for the sensor?
By that are you saying the +98 5S oil pump crank angle sensor isnt in the right position??

Looks like ill be buying a Moroso sump too, so having the 5S pump works out well for that.

Your Water pump will work just fine, but you need to be sure to use gen 3 hardlines, and then fabricate them to bypass your oil cooler.

I will be using the gen3 bypass lines, as obviously the gen2/5s wont fit on the back of the gen3 pump.
Modifying the bypass lines for the oil cooler is actually the wrong way to do it though.
The gen3 cooling system is much advanced over that of the gen2/5S and even gen4 with it having the oil cooler supplied by coolant from directly from the block. It gets a lot more flow this way compared to the gen2/5s system of having it supplied by the bypass lines.
Ill be copying this by having a supply pipe brazed into one of the welsch/freeze plugs.

Check out MR2Josh's build out on the mr2oc, hes doing a gen 3 head onto a 5s block with a gen 4 oil pan and pump. The caldina head is almost identical to the gen 3 head except for the TDC sensor and distributor delete.

Actually its not.
Caldina head has different shaped combustion chambers and slightly better shaped inlet & exhaust ports.

Thanks for the comments though... the more discussion on these topics, the better :)
 

phattyduck

New member
MWP":2xkgx3uj said:
phattyduck":2xkgx3uj said:
Gen2 Camry trunk! Shouldn't that be listed as your daily driver? :shrug: :D

... youre a freak to identify the car by that! :p

Actually you USA'ians would know it better as an ES250 i think.
Its a VZV21R.
The ES250 has a different trunk (top hinged, and doesn't 'dip' in the middle for the lid), along with frameless windows, etc. The chassis is still mostly Camry though... Having owned two FWD gen2 Camrys and one Alltrac Camry gives me a leg up in identifying them. :p

-Charlie
 

l0ch0w

New member
Two months ago Josh and I just happened to have old oil pumps laying around from every generation. We had an early 5s, 98+5s, gen 3, gen 4 and gen 2 pumps.... We measured the depth of the impeller gear as well as the inside diameter of the star shaped space. Based on the measurements the 4th gen had the largest overall dimensions. It also had a differently designed exducer area (dont know what else to call it) that was larger and would flow more oil. We still werent completely convinced though that it flowed the most, so we sent the dimensions and pictures to an automotive engineer friend of ours and he verified that the gen 4 pump would clearly flow the most oil. We also verified this with Aaron down at ATS racing. This was the same reason they switched to the 98+ 5s oil pump (which was a close second in measurements) as an upgrade to the gen 2 oiling system, they have said that they will be considering getting the 4th gen oil pump as a high flow upgrade to the gen 3 oiling system. Remember, the 98+ 5s pumps are only backwards compatible with a gen 2 oiling system. And the gen 4 is only compatible with a gen 3 oiling system.

The big reason IMHO for switching to a gen 3 or higher oiling system is the fact that you relocate your oil filter, and the oil cooler problem you are having right now would be much more easily solved. Future turbo upgrades make having the oil filter in this location a giant pain in the ass.

As for the HFHOE problem that you will be encountering at your oil cooler here is what you might consider doing so that you could use the gen 3 water pump (which is also a much higher flow device). Normally the HFHOE on the gen 3 and higher comes directly out of the block instead of out the bottom of the water pump. What you do is get an old set of water hardlines and weld them to the inlet of your oil cooler, and then you route it to a cooler location and weld an AN fitting onto the end of it which you attach to some other cool water source.
 

MWP

New member
Hmm, ok, interesting stuff.

l0ch0w":czbz7l0d said:
As for the HFHOE problem that you will be encountering at your oil cooler here is what you might consider doing so that you could use the gen 3 water pump (which is also a much higher flow device). Normally the HFHOE on the gen 3 and higher comes directly out of the block instead of out the bottom of the water pump. What you do is get an old set of water hardlines and weld them to the inlet of your oil cooler, and then you route it to a cooler location and weld an AN fitting onto the end of it which you attach to some other cool water source.

Yeah... thats pretty much what im doing.
If oil filter gets in the way, ill relocate it at a later date.
Ill use gen3 resin impeller water pump with its gen3 rear housing, gen3 hardlines, 5S oil/water cooler.
Supply 5S cooler with water from the block via a pipe welded to a freeze plug. Return water into the hardlines as the gen3 oil-cooler would do.
 

l0ch0w

New member
K so josh might kill me for doing this... but here is how he did it...

imagejpeg3h.jpg

By alochow at 2011-07-26

Gen 3 waterpump and hardlines, gen 4 oil pan and oil pump, gen 3 oil cooler with extra hardlines welded around to an AN fitting.

Also the 5s oil cooler will not mate up with any of the other waterlines correctly. At least not with any of the HFH's available... You need to keep the oil cooler matched up with the hardlines otherwise you will be stuck having to use plain unshielded heater hose... and that never turns out well...
 

l0ch0w

New member
Quick question, i forgot the name of that aussie company that offers the resin impeller pump. Ive seen it before, but what are they called again????
 

l0ch0w

New member
MWP":2wq1w5ha said:
Road & Track is the company.

So where is that AN fitting going to go then?
The only cold coolant supply you can use is direct from the block like im doing.
http://www.aclperformance.com.au/prod_heatshield.htm

Thanks!!

Secondly I mistyped... I meant it goes to a hot water return... the cool water comes from the HFH... and then exits to any other location... I think Josh is routing it to the water neck off the head...
 

MWP

New member
But cool water doesnt come from the hardlines.
The hardlines are a return back to the pump after the (now hot) coolant has been pumped through the block & head.
If you do hardlines->cooler->head-water-neck-thing youll also get no flow as there is no pressure difference between the hardlines and head water neck.

Check the 205 engine coolant flow diagrams.
 

l0ch0w

New member
Meh... idk then... He just said hes getting some braided line and hooking it somewhere... I honestly cant recall where though...
 

MWP

New member
So i got the modified, blueprinted, fully balanced, assembled 5S block back yesterday :D

So clean :D
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CP's, Eagles, 3S caps, ARP's:
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Doweled crank for strong 3S flywheel fitment:
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Missile silo method of gbox fitting (checking block to tcase clearance):
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Needed a tad more webbing ground off:
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Gearbox fits!
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What has to be removed to fit a GT4 box on a 5S block:
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MWP

New member
Custom coolant outlet for oil-cooler supply:
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Checking clearance with gen3 waterpump & hardlines:
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The strong 5S block (well i hope so anyway ;) ):
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aus jd 2703

New member
Very nice progress. It's amazing how much more material the 5s has at the deck. Have you decided in a hp figure or are u just going for as much as it will happily make?
 
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