88' Celica Alltrac refresh

Curry

New member
Yea tomorrow im gonna have time to bleed more air. The valve u speak of... Is that the little control arm with the piano wite attached? I believe my control unit work i know at night i felt heat and switched to cool and it worked.

Today i had a chance to drive the car locally. First i warmed it up then drove. Lots of stop lights and stop signs. Got stuck in the wendys drive thru lol. Temp stayed nice and cool. Drove back and right before i got in the temp slowly started to creep up. So figure i drove for 30 minutes before temps started to creep up. Outside weather temp was 87*

Oh and my interior is black and my windows arent tinted so it gets VERY hot in there... :shoots:
 

88gt4DE

Active member
Yeah control valve is right next to master cylinder and yeah they got hot ... tint will help a little ... I'm still questioning that overflow setup ... had to be a reason it got changed ... let me read up on that recall. Mine had that done way back in the day ....
 

88gt4DE

Active member
Ok I cant get the pictures to post but heres the text from the recall ....

CONDITION
Engine overheating can occur due to low coolant level.
CAUSE
When a turbo charged engine has been operated at high speed or heavy load, it should always be
allowed to idle for several minutes before turning off the ignition. (The owner’s manual for turbo charged
vehicles gives specific instructions as to the required idling time).
Failure to observe these precautions can result in high temperature expansion of the engine coolant to
the extent that it may overflow the expansion reservoir. Repeated loss of coolant in this manner can lead
to a coolant level that is low enough to cause engine overheating.
CORRECTION
To prevent this coolant loss a new radiator and Coolant Reservoir Tank has been designed. The following
schematic depicts the change in the cooling system function that is effected by these improved parts.


So basically they say it can lose coolant with the old setup and then you would have air in system. Try to find the brass bottle. I know the little plastic one is dincontinued cause I have a hole in mine and cant get it. However once the metal bottle is on it , there wont be coolant in the litttle plastic anyway unless its boiling over ... I can fax ya the write up if ya want just let me know ... :)
 

Curry

New member
I'm confused about that though...

So lets say with the new radiator. Fill it and bleed it. No air. Coolant tank is filled correctly. At this point the car should run without overheating. Since there is no air and everything is fine right?

So the car is hot, coolant has expanded the coolant tank is filled to the correct levels. Needle on the temp gauge is normal.

Turn the car off everything cools down. Coolant contracts creating a vacuum. Coolant gets drawn into the radiator from the coolant tank. Cycle continues.

So even without the metal coolant tank why would there be a problem unless the plastic one is leaking (mine isn't)
 

88gt4DE

Active member
Not sure man ... I have never seen this happen and all makes perfect sense on how the normal cooling system should work. Just pointing this out for ya to keep in mind ...
 

Curry

New member
Tomorrow I'm gonna pull apart the front end and pressure wash the hell out of the condenser. If it still overheats then im gonna stick a fan on the other side of the condenser and see if that changes anything. I guess at that point we can rule out air flow.

Ill bleed the system again.

Next step will be a tstat from a parts store just to test with until my toyota tstat gets here.

So ill post those results tomorrow evening and see what happens.
 

Curry

New member
88gt4DE":1avh1f7b said:
Sounds good man ... Def sounds like its getting better for sure 8)

Yep we will see what this afternoon brings. I'm getting ready to bleed brakes and change gear oil on my 02 WRX. After that its on to the alltrac.
 

ZeroDrift

New member
The issue is that when the engine is hot enough it will boil the coolant and can overwhelm the coolant overflow. Once that has dumped coolant out it will eventually cool and the vacuum of the system will draw what coolant remains back in. The trouble is after a few cycles of this it will draw in air and that is where issues begin. Advice hear is to use a slightly higher percentage of water in the cooling system as water transports heat better than coolant. Next to keep the water from boiling, or expanding as much when it does boil- use Redline WaterWetter. The stuff works very well and I've been using it for years. Finally consider a turbo timer if you are too lazy to let the car idle when shutting it down.

I've been dealing with similar troubles on my ST165 and feel I have a fairly good solution. viewtopic.php?f=44&t=43563&start=60#p421897 If you take a close look at the lower and upper grille openings, you will see that there are many areas for air to go around the radiator as opposed to passing through it. Nor is there much to keep the air from washing through the sides of the radiator. Note that air will flow from high pressure to low pressure and that there is a large high pressure zone in front of the car. Additionally, with the high pressure zone in front of the radiator we need to ensure that the pressure is lower behind it so that air will pass through efficiently. So there are a few major hurtles to overcome.

My solution addressed airflow to the radiator and the pressure zones on either side of it. Firstly, the aluminum panels that closely fit to the bumper support and core support. These surround the radiator and prevent air from washing over the top and sides of the unit. For air passing underneath there is the lower 'scoop' that mates with the bumper grille and directs air to the radiator. Turns out I never actually put a picture of the finished product but you can get the basic idea. As for the pressure zones, the splitter does a few things here. viewtopic.php?f=44&t=43563&start=75#p422151 First it creates a high pressure zone above the panel and directs air to the vents above it. Next it keeps the air that passes below it smooth and laminar. This creates a lower pressure zone behind the panel, which helps to suction air out of the engine bay. This effect is greater with speed, and to address lower speeds is where the vents come into action. Heat naturally rises and the vents help bleed off extra heat from the engine bay decently at lower speeds.

Oh- nearly forgot to mention- get some foam weather stripping to seal the entire radiator to the core support. There are many large gaps that allow air to escape around the radiator. This effectively makes the pusher fan in front of the condenser useless unless the air spillways are addressed.

In either case I hope this gives you some insights to the cooling system and areas that it needs improvement.
 

Curry

New member
Thank you for that wealth of info! Some very valid points...

So I guess in short a few things that will help

- Remove some coolant and mix in some water. I already put one bottle of water wetter, should I put another?

- I should source the second coolant bottle and add that in as well. This will allow extra coolant capacity preventing coolant from flowing out of the tanks?

- I currently have a 0.9 cap on the radiator will the 1.1 make much of a difference?

- Prevent air from going around the radiator by sealing off around it and above it

- Air splitter

ZeroDrift":1vjkeked said:
The issue is that when the engine is hot enough it will boil the coolant and can overwhelm the coolant overflow. Once that has dumped coolant out it will eventually cool and the vacuum of the system will draw what coolant remains back in. The trouble is after a few cycles of this it will draw in air and that is where issues begin. Advice hear is to use a slightly higher percentage of water in the cooling system as water transports heat better than coolant. Next to keep the water from boiling, or expanding as much when it does boil- use Redline WaterWetter. The stuff works very well and I've been using it for years. Finally consider a turbo timer if you are too lazy to let the car idle when shutting it down.

I've been dealing with similar troubles on my ST165 and feel I have a fairly good solution. viewtopic.php?f=44&t=43563&start=60#p421897 If you take a close look at the lower and upper grille openings, you will see that there are many areas for air to go around the radiator as opposed to passing through it. Nor is there much to keep the air from washing through the sides of the radiator. Note that air will flow from high pressure to low pressure and that there is a large high pressure zone in front of the car. Additionally, with the high pressure zone in front of the radiator we need to ensure that the pressure is lower behind it so that air will pass through efficiently. So there are a few major hurtles to overcome.

My solution addressed airflow to the radiator and the pressure zones on either side of it. Firstly, the aluminum panels that closely fit to the bumper support and core support. These surround the radiator and prevent air from washing over the top and sides of the unit. For air passing underneath there is the lower 'scoop' that mates with the bumper grille and directs air to the radiator. Turns out I never actually put a picture of the finished product but you can get the basic idea. As for the pressure zones, the splitter does a few things here. viewtopic.php?f=44&t=43563&start=75#p422151 First it creates a high pressure zone above the panel and directs air to the vents above it. Next it keeps the air that passes below it smooth and laminar. This creates a lower pressure zone behind the panel, which helps to suction air out of the engine bay. This effect is greater with speed, and to address lower speeds is where the vents come into action. Heat naturally rises and the vents help bleed off extra heat from the engine bay decently at lower speeds.

Oh- nearly forgot to mention- get some foam weather stripping to seal the entire radiator to the core support. There are many large gaps that allow air to escape around the radiator. This effectively makes the pusher fan in front of the condenser useless unless the air spillways are addressed.

In either case I hope this gives you some insights to the cooling system and areas that it needs improvement.
 

ZeroDrift

New member
If you have WaterWetter in the system, one should be enough. As for the higher pressure radiator cap- I would advise it. While it does add some level of strain to any gaskets, it also effectively increases the boiling point of the system. Not sure if you honestly need a larger overflow tank. Try this as a last resort.

Essentially all of these small items add up to a system that will cool properly and provide better temperature stability for your engine.
 

phattyduck

New member
The UK guys are big believers in the high pressure radiator cap. I would tend to agree with them.

You should be running 50% water or possibly even more (I run 70% water or so, but my car doesn't spend much time below freezing). Water is a better 'coolant' (meaning heat capacity, ability to remove heat from the engine), but the coolant itself will aid in lower freezing point and a higher boiling point.

-Charlie
 

Curry

New member
The coolant I use is the prestone 50/50 mix stuff. I haven't heard anything bad about it. Same thing I use in the WRX as well.

If I put the AC on I noticed it takes longer for it to start getting past the halfway point so I guess its getting better slowly. I'm going to switch over to the 1.1 radiator cap as well.

Today I had so free time so I decided to start working on those templates. One for the radiator shroud, which is similar to what beatrush makes for the WRX. Constructive critisicm is welcome!!! For the air splitter I gave it about 1.5 inches out from the bumper.

Their shroud
radiator_shroud.jpg


Basic outline
IMAG0108.jpg


More trimmed - Red tape indicates where I will have to bend to get it to fit correctly.
IMAG0109.jpg


Started the Air splitter as well
IMAG0110.jpg


Stainless Steel sharpie. Don't leave home without it!!
IMAG0111.jpg


IMAG0112.jpg


IMAG0115.jpg


IMAG0113.jpg
 

phattyduck

New member
Curry":38e8itqt said:
The coolant I use is the prestone 50/50 mix stuff. I haven't heard anything bad about it. Same thing I use in the WRX as well.

If I put the AC on I noticed it takes longer for it to start getting past the halfway point so I guess its getting better slowly. I'm going to switch over to the 1.1 radiator cap as well.

Today I had so free time so I decided to start working on those templates. One for the radiator shroud, which is similar to what beatrush makes for the WRX. Constructive critisicm is welcome!!! For the air splitter I gave it about 1.5 inches out from the bumper.

Their shroud
radiator_shroud.jpg
I use the standard pre-mixed stuff + water on my WRX, but I use the Toyota Red on my 3s-gte. Hopefully the overheating stuff was just a bubble or whatever.

As for the radiator shroud - you can just use a bit of foam to close the gap at the top of the radiator. You can also stuff pipe insulation (meant for home hot water pipes) or similar around the sides/bottom of the radiator to seal it up. I always though the WRX parts were just for show. The factory radiator on that car is fully sealed to the radiator support already...

-Charlie
 

ZeroDrift

New member
Progress is looking good. Tips on the splitter- use the lower tow mounts to attach a bracket. Very simple and sturdy piece to modify. Don't forget about a duct for the alternator inlet if you still have one.

The shroud piece isn't needed as much there as compared to the area infront of the core support to the grille. Foam to seal the hood to the core support and another piece to seal the radiator to the core support will be more simple. A more critical piece is the lower section to guide air up to the radiator from the lower grille opening.
 

underscore

Well-known member
I think it's more important to fill the space between where you have the cardboard and the front bumper, most cars have a plastic panel that covers that gap and prevent air from flowing over the rad.
 

Curry

New member
Thanks for the feedback guys. Much appreciated.

I'm still putting the foam to seal up the top gap by the radiator. I might still make the shroud to go over it just for kicks. Just curious to see how it will come out.

Thanks Zero, I havent gotten to actually go under the car yet but I will post up if I run into issues getting the mounts done. I do still have the alt ducting so i will incorporate that as well.

I think it's more important to fill the space between where you have the cardboard and the front bumper, most cars have a plastic panel that covers that gap and prevent air from flowing over the rad.

The shroud piece isn't needed as much there as compared to the area infront of the core support to the grille. Foam to seal the hood to the core support and another piece to seal the radiator to the core support will be more simple. A more critical piece is the lower section to guide air up to the radiator from the lower grille opening.

So are you guys saying a shroud to cover the gap between the hood latch and the grill is beneficial?
 

Curry

New member
Ok so I finally went to home depot and got my supplies.

I started with the easy project. I sealed the top radiator gap. I hope I sealed the right thing. here are some pics. Let me know if i did it correctly! I decided to add the shroud cause it looks cool and it should keep the insulation in place.

Tomorrow im going to do the sides and bottom with the same foam insulation and then I wanted to mock up a FMIC to see how thats going to affect the air flow mods im working on currently.

I also have enough metal left over to start that air guide that goes on the bottom connecting to the bumper.

And finally I will get started on the actual splitter now that I have a template.

IMAG0121.jpg


IMAG0120.jpg


IMAG0119.jpg
 

underscore

Well-known member
Curry":655vxoym said:
So are you guys saying a shroud to cover the gap between the hood latch and the grill is beneficial?

Yes, it's called a "cooling diversion panel" and forces the air through the rad vs over it.
 

Curry

New member
underscore":36ycf7bd said:
Curry":36ycf7bd said:
So are you guys saying a shroud to cover the gap between the hood latch and the grill is beneficial?

Yes, it's called a "cooling diversion panel" and forces the air through the rad vs over it.

Ahhh ok I wasn't sure. Looks easy enough to make. I'll give it shot on friday. Raining here right now. :doh:

Thanks
 
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