1991 Corolla All-Trac / The 3SGTE swap no one does

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SXA10

New member
The corolla all-trac actually uses the same trans as the 1st gen Rav4's.

^ that is not 100% true. The Corolla's E55F or E57F uses different gear ratios then the Rav4.1's E250F. Secondly the bell housings are designed for the 4a engine setup hence smaller on the Corolla's gearbox then the Rav4's...which is larger and designed for the 3s engine setup. This leads me to the mounts: 3 of them, like most traversal Toyota layouts, have the engine mounts on gearbox and then 1 on the actually engine itself. 2 of those gearbox mounts (front & rear) bolt onto the bell housing. Because the Corolla's bellhousing is different then the Rav4's, they won't fit and will require fabrication.

So if you mount any E-series transaxle made for the 3s engine setup, eg E154F or E250F, it is not a direct fit and again will require fabrication.

Best Regards,
SXA10
Here's my swap...
http://rav4gtt.wordpress.com/
 
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mk1spyder

New member
You are right about the bellhousings being different, and yes the gear ratios are different, but fundamentally they are the same with the locking center diff synchros etc...

As far as the engine mounts the rear mount actually doesn't bolt to the bellhousing and I have confirmed that the corolla mount will bolt to the E154F transmission, as does the center trans mount. You are right about the front bellhousing mount, the corolla one will not bolt up like I thought it would. BUT, the ST185 mount does of course and it puts you in almost the exact same spot. Not much fab work to do.
 
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brutekiller787

New member
Why did you go st215 if you dont mind me asking? I know they are easier to find on ebay but other than that what was your reasoning. Not trying to knock just want to know for knowings sake
 
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mk1spyder

New member
Its not, its a st205 with a st215 intake manifold. The intake manifold and the ignition coils are the only good thing about them.
 
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mk1spyder

New member
The engine is in! Fits like a glove, 3 out of 4 engine mounts bolt into the corolla. For the front mount you have to use the celica bracket and mount. The passenger side head mount is no where close to bolting in since the 3SGTE leans backwards and the 4AFE sits upright. Speaking of leaning backwards, you have to hammer down the seam weld where the cowl panel meets the firewall about .5" to clear the intake manifold. But more importantly the turbo clears the radiator and the timing belt cover clears the frame rail with plenty of clearance. This is what I was afraid of since the 3S is longer than the 4A, but you can still get it off to change the timing belt, not nearly as close as I had feared.

Off to the fab shop to move the passenger side body bracket to match the engine mount. Looks beastly sitting in a light a$$ corolla. Luckily it has AWD to put the power down instead of the silly FWD AE101 corollas i've seen with 3SGTE swaps (pointless).
 

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MWP

New member
mk1spyder":382yy8wo said:
Its not, its a st205 with a st215 intake manifold. The intake manifold and the ignition coils are the only good thing about them.
Click to expand...

Not true at all.
 
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mk1spyder

New member
Yeah, what else is good about them? The flimsy rods & pistons that cant take near the power of a st205? The turbo you cant upgrade without a totally new manifold? The heads that flow no more than a st205? The much more complex wiring and lack of mechanical speedo capability?

For a swap the st215 is not the route to go, but the intake manifold is nice, and so are the coils.
 
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MWP

New member
Improved block material and shape.
No distributor & uses COP.
Improved oil pump.
Head ports are better finished, and combustion chambers are better designed.
Low friction cams.
Side entry intake manifold.
Much improved ECU & electronics.
Engine is ~6yrs newer (=seals, etc are in better shape).
Top feed injectors.
... and more i cant think of at the moment.
 
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mk1spyder

New member
I already admitted the intake manifold and coils are better. The top feed injectors just give you more options, but the exhaust manifold gives you less options so thats a toss up. Plus the pistons/rods can't hold the extra power anyways so what good is that stuff lol.

In my opinion the ST215 is much like the LS7, tweaked near the limit from the factory compared to the headroom the ST205/2JZ have. The ST215 is also very similar to the 99+ non-turbo 2JZ, much weaker than the early non-turbo 2JZ for boosting purposes. They lightened everything up for MPG and efficiency.

And what exactly makes the ST215 cams low friction or the oil pump and block better? Even if they were marginally better the ST205 items are great so why bother. Has anyone ever flow benched the 2 heads against each other? I would guess the margins are slim.
 
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MWP

New member
Yeah, the rods & pistons are the weak point, but upgrade those and the gen4 engine is far more reliable and capable of big power than a gen2 or gen3.

The gen4 block has the reinforced corner and is made from better quality iron than the earlier gens (=no cracked blocks).
The the oil pump has a larger gerotor (pumps more oil), and the cams have the backside cut away (minor).

I would be surprised if the added pressure recovery areas and cleaner ports didn't add up to a decent improvement on port flow.

Ive recently had full gen2, gen3 and gen4 engines disassembled on a desk in front of me so i could pick & choose the best parts for my new engine build.
Its clear the gen4 is the best of the lot. There are no big changes, but lots of small ones that add up.
 
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mk1spyder

New member
Yeah I saw that red car, it is REALLY custom, nothing bolt in about it. He cut out the entire floor pan and trimmed a st185 floor pan and welded it in to fit the awd stuff. My car is already awd and it is all bolt in, more of a street racer than his all out could have bought a ferrari with that money car lol.

If all you have to do is swap the pistons and rods that does not make it a good engine lol. That logic would make a dodge stratus a good boosted engine with forged pistons and rods lol. For a swap, with the least effort and bolt in doesn't need a tune power, you can't beat the Gen3. Ask monkey wrench racing about the Gen4 swap they did in their Rav4. He highly recommends doing a Gen3 instead.
 
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Tecker185

Member
I second MWP with the gen4 swap, it is the best drop in and go swap. Everyone has there own opinions and bad experience's.

The argument that the turbo and manifold are all one piece isn't really one at all. If your going to spend 2k or more on a turbo kit a used gen3 exhaust manifold isn't a deal breaker. I've got one sitting in my garage I picked up for $65 just in case I wanna go bigger.

The only argument can be said is the "weaker rods", but they all came with junk cast pistons. If your going to push the stock block your going to crack a ring land before you start having rod failure. If you swap on the pistons for forged you would be stupid to leave the stock rods in there anyways.

The gen4 is a great engine that performs like an alltrac should stock. It will also make 300 hp with small mods.
 
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mk1spyder

New member
The wiring is much more complex, and the transmission doesn't work with cable driven speedos. Spending 2 grand on a turbo kit is not what you do with a drop and go swap. For my purposes the Gen4 was too much hassle. Blocks and pistons failing are all related to bad tunes usually, rods snapping are not lol.

The exhaust manifold flange is a different pattern and size from all the other 3sgte's meaning it is much more expensive for an aftermarket manifold, the downpipe pattern is unique for the stock turbo, everything about the engine is more expensive to modify and install. And it has a higher compression ratio leaving less room for error. On top of that i'm pretty sure you're stuck with the stock intake cam.

The ST205 was nothing but improvements over the ST185&165, the ST215 was 2 steps forward 3 steps back due to Toyota starting to puss out and care only about making money. You don't hear anyone complain about anything bad with the ST205 swap over a ST185 swap, but there are plenty of people with bad things to say about the ST215's, just search it hah.

Now if you're making a super custom hybrid S engine then some ST215 parts are useful. My favorites are the coil ignition (the crown jewel of the engine) and the intake manifold, you say the block is better which might be true but i've never cracked a block in my life along with 95% of the rest of us. If it wasn't for the coil ignition people wouldn't even bother with the swap, it is really the only LEAP forward, everything else is baby steps.
 
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mk1spyder

New member
I'm just waiting for the H1 to get out of my fabricators shop so I can trade it for this thing and he can weld up the passenger side engine bracket. There is a perfect dip in the strut tower that allows the engine mount to fit by maybe 1mm, it is close but it fits like a glove.
 

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mk1spyder

New member
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I am confident it is going to launch with the 4-link solid gts rear axle pretty well vs the IRS cars.

Plus factory curb weight for the wagon is 2630lbs (the 89' all-trac sedan is about 50lbs less but rare as balls). That is a steep discount from the ST185. On top of that I am gutting the car to offset the addition of the heavier engine and turbo (trans is the same weight). I am confident that junking the entire A/C system and interior will easily offset that and maybe then some.
 
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Awesome-Trac

New member
There was actually someone in Cali selling the 1990 corolla sedan Alltrac which was crazy and as soon as I replied it was already sold on the same day :(
 
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