RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:15 am

Yeah Colorado is just lousy with good driving roads. Looking forward to touring the state in a very fulsome manner over the next years. Anytime you care to link up for a weekend cruise I'm game!
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:10 am

I have come to the tentative conclusion that the Lorelei is very picky about fuel--not surprising rolling a JDM ECU.

Last weekend, I was at a quarter of a tank at the beginning of a drive. I put ten gallons of Shell 91 octane into it, and perhaps foolishly, a bottle of STP octane booster into the tank (I normally use Lucas Octane Booster if I use octane booster).

All was well until I had driven about 90 miles that day and the next day, burning off the rest of the previous tank which I'd picked up from a Conoco down at the bottom of my hill or the base exchange gas station.

Air-fuel mixture went lean, and power was lacking, so I limped it home. Over the past couple of days I've just been cogitating on it, and come to the conclusion that that the only things that had changed was between the gas and the octane booster, the mix is wrong. I went and put 4 gallons into it from the station down the hill and took the Lorelei on a test drive.

Performance was better. The lean condition was not as pronounced and was not as present. So, I'm going to watch my fuel, burn the tank out in my commute (40 miles round trip, so it won't take long), and observe.

I've also been noticing, sometimes it starts first time, sometimes it take three tries to start. Doesn't seem to be much rhyme nor reason to it, except perhaps, just perhaps, it requires more tries to start when the ambient temperature is warmer.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby underscore » Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:41 am

Roreri wrote:I've also been noticing, sometimes it starts first time, sometimes it take three tries to start. Doesn't seem to be much rhyme nor reason to it, except perhaps, just perhaps, it requires more tries to start when the ambient temperature is warmer.


Mine does this as well, it started doing it after it was in the shop for the overhaul so I'm not too sure what the cause is.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:08 pm

Well, the Lorelei is garaged for now. It wasn't the fuel. I ran it quite the distance on Thursday and Friday, then on Monday had to turn around halfway to work and switch to my backup ride.

The silver lining, is that it's still mobile. Performance is like this: The motor starts right up, sometimes first try, sometimes on the second or third try (I get the feeling like sometimes I need to be a little more handy on easing in some fuel with the accelerator).

Air-fuel ratio at idle is right at stoich.

If I am gentle on acceleration--like, more gentle than any allTrac driver wants to drive--then I can keep air-fuel from leaning out too much. I can reach 120 or even 140km/h if I keep at it. If I push into it, the air-fuel ratio goes full lean and then eventually the motor enters a fuel starved state. The motor lags badly on hills, and is generally gutless. I mean, think of it as a 50hp Celica.

I switched out to the old original ECU to try and isolate the problem to the ECU. The issue was not fixed--which tells me that either BOTH ECUs are at fault, or neither ECU is at fault. Getting another ECU or sending in the original 3S-GTE ECU to a guy to get it "legitimately" refurbished is an option if I want to fire the cash cannon in the problem's possible general direction. Or I could re-approach the capacitor solder joints and see if I can do a better job of establishing a rock solid connection.

So, my thoughts as I proceed:

Fuel Pump (an obvious point of failure as it is likely 30 years old)
Fuel Injectors (could be failing electrically--they are likely 30 years old)
Throttle Position Sensor (I don't know why I think that one. Maybe optimism that it's a simple part.)
Air Flow Meter (a common bugaboo given that it's an older analog part)

Keeping my eyes open for a good shop. An old timer in my new forever neighborhood pointed me to someone who has taken great care of him--I can see going down and having a conversation with them to see how they feel about it.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby simple » Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:25 pm

Nixspeed is in Arvada. Nick knows the 3SGTE engine very well. I've got a guy in Denver that cleans fuel injectors for $20.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:09 pm

Grip-addict pointed me toward Nick as well, and we’ve been in touch. I just haven’t followed up since I’ve been hors d’combat with moving and getting started in a new. job. And that tip about your guy who does injector cleaning is much appreciated. If you PM me I can make arrangements.

I’m busy right now but over the next few weeks I’ll work up a plan.

I think just assuming the fuel injectors are dirty is a safe starting point. I’ll go down the list.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:22 am

I'm reaching out to WitchHunter to see about cleaning.

I imagine there's a way to clean the injectors on the vehicle as well, I'm just unsure about the method and tools required.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby simple » Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:41 am

I've used this guy several times for motorcycle and old Toyotas

https://fuelinjectorspecialists.com/
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Gert » Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:03 pm

Hmmm, my guess: fuelpump or regulator.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:53 pm

Thanks for your thoughts, Gert. And thank you Underscore for linking Fuel Injector Specialists.

Allright, then I’m going to dig out the injectors. From what i see in the BGB this is a bit of a project.

EDIT: One hour and fifty minutes to pull the throttle body--because I'm learning the process as I'm going. That's step one of several as laid out in the BGB, the necessity of some which I question, like the charcoal canister and air filter...wtf?

This guy appears to just get right down in there and pull the injectors once he has the throttle body off.

https://youtu.be/u43sNubKPJo?t=423

So unless someone hops on real quick and says otherwise I'm doing that.

EDIT EDIT: Okay, so I must be some kinda pussy (to use the period-correct term), because I sure can't get the injectors out like old dude in that video does. It appears he's doing some tugging to get the injectors off the rail, but he can get them out. Whereas I can't get mine to budge. I think it helps him that in his case he can get a better angle to pull. Nor can I seem to get the whole rail free--after I took the three bolts out I just couldn't navigate it free from the tight space.

This is where I stand:

Fuel Rail 7AUG2022.JPG

I've got the backplate loose, and I have the fuel rail loose. In trying to get the injectors out, or the fuel rail out, I got my hands good and grimy with a thick solution of mixed fuel and oil--old stuff from what I could tell. Anyway, there it sits for now. After watching another video that showed me how the thing is set up, I just need to pull the fuel rail with the injectors and then separate them from the fuel rail. Perhaps on a better day after I've had time to think on it.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: Something about calling myself a pussy fired me up. I went down, looked over the situation, disconnected the fuel line banjo bolt at the top of the fuel filter, pulled out the feed rail toward the fuel filter, then sorted out some of the hoses and disconnected the cold start fuel line, and I was able to get it out.

Fuel Injectors O-Rings and Rail 7AUG2022.JPG

The thicker rubber bushings at the outside of the bottom of the rail were still pliable. The o-rings at the bottom of the injectors inside the rail were brittle--these will definitely need replacing.

Fuel Rail Manufacturer Mark.JPG

The fuel rail was manufactured by Arsam or Aasom, it appears. I found this a little unexpected. I have no idea who the OEM fuel rail manufacturer was.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby grip-addict » Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:31 am

hell yeah nice job. Are you sending the injectors somewhere that will do flow testing? I had that done on my 550's before I switched to Deatschwerks and I was surprised at the difference in flow between the 4. I haven't looked at the sheet in a while, but it was something like a 7% difference in flow between the high and the lowest one.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:40 am

Thanks! I was feeling very in over my head halfway through. The Big Green Book would have had me de-installing all manner of stuff had I followed it blindly. I'm still a little anxious about how apart the Lorelei is. Basically, I don't like rendering it inoperable if I can help it.

I am going to reach out to Fuel Injector Specialists tomorrow during lunch, and if they're solid on turnaround, I'll ship them up after work. Their claimed procedure is like this:

1. LEAK TEST your injectors at 3 different pressures.

2. Check the injector RESISTANCE at pull in AND hold in currents (a test procedure unique to our company).

3. Check the SPRAY PATTERNS of your injectors to make sure they meet manufacturer specs.

4. We FLOW TEST for correct injector VOLUME.

5. We remove and RETURN old parts -- o-rings, seals & filters.

6. Injectors are then ULTRASONICALLY CLEANED at LOW TEMPERATURE. The injectors are then ULTRASONICALLY CLEANED at HIGH TEMPERATURE (under hood engine temp, basically). This cold, then hot, temp differential loosens deposits that other cleaning processes leave behind.

7. Injectors are reassembled with top quality parts (nothing Chinese here; we prefer QUALITY!)

8. Spray pattern and volume checked and noted again.

9. Unlike ANY OTHER CLEANING SERVICE, we leak test at high AND low temperatures. Got a car which runs good cold, but gets jittery hot, or vice versa, and never sets a code, or the fuel trims don't show any terribly out of spec deviations? If you don't test hot AND cold, these defective injectors will slip past the process, and will be shown "O.k." Not at FIS!

10. Injectors are sealed and returned. Injectors are internally lubed with gun lube to keep moisture from ruining spotless metal.

11. ADDED BONUS: BEFORE & AFTER pictures included, so you know for sure what you are getting!


Which I think is pretty damn good.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby grip-addict » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:51 am

That's exhaustive! Nice. Hopefully they don't have a big lead time right now. Make sure you tell them they are
Low impedence side feed injectors. Some places can't make that work since it's such an old style.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:47 am

Will do--that's good information. WitchHunter says on their website that the 90s-era Densos usually have 12-14 Ohm resistance which is way higher than the 2-4 Ohm resistance the Gen 2 3S-GTE injectors spec at.

I checked the resistance of these injectors, and they were 3.2 Ω, 3.4 Ω, 3.3 Ω, and 3.3 Ω—still within the 2 to 4 Ω range acceptable. They are Denso side feed low impedance injectors, part number 23250-74090, rated at 440cc. So, the standard equipment.

For the o-rings, PrimeMR2 has a complete o-ring kit: https://primemr2.com/products/fuel-inje ... gen3-3sgte

I went ahead and got these. I'll see about sending these with the injectors to have them installed on servicing.

For wetting the o-rings before re-install, anything special to use? Clean motor oil?
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby simple » Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:35 am

Fuel injector specialist turn around time is awesome. It's the best kind of small business.

I didn't wet my new o rings?
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