RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

grip-addict

Active member
underscore":2ahwm7f0 said:
You can always use one of these splitters to get the pressure without disabling the factory pressure switch

https://racerxfabrication.com/mr2-celic ... or-adapter

It's be nice if someone could make a combo oil pressure/temperature sender, so you only need to plumb in a single device.

There are options out there, but they're not straightforward installs :/ https://www.haltech.com/product/ht-0109 ... re-sensor/ I'm running this guy and display oil pressure/temp on a can gauge.

I bet you could tee and ran 2 sensors that feed to this gauge (would have to customize it to say oil instead of water) https://www.speedhut.com/gauge/GRM338-D ... p,-Oil-bar
Does indeed suck that it requires 2 sensors though .
 

Roreri

Active member
Oil/Coolant Temp and Air/Fuel Ratio Gauges

I am slowly collecting the equipment to set up some additional gauges in the cockpit. I ordered that RacerX splitter so I can access oil temperatures. I’m still looking for an elegant solution for accessing coolant temperatures—is a short metal tube with an access bung the best way to go?

The AutoMeter air/fuel ratio gauge I ordered came yesterday. Together with the AutoMeter dual temp gauge I got, it looks reasonably sharp:

5BC7902B-A452-49D1-BCD9-EBA729C9CF62.jpeg
As I was sorting through everything, though, I came to realize that the dual temp gauge I have came with only one temperature sensor. So, that will be another bag of cash. I see how this hobby becomes a bit of a money sink!

Undercarriage Protection

I also have some POR15 product on the way to get after the undercarriage—I’d like to see this done before the end of November. If I do it right, the Lorelei will be set up for ten or fifteen years more, at least as far as rust. I’m considering a coat of POR15 on the sills and bottom rails and such. Nothing serious going on down there but I would definitely like to get after it now rather than leave it to chance. I went over to the base Auto Crafts Shop, but it was locked, and no hours posted. I was hoping to get some lift time to do the undercarriage because getting under it on jack stands will be ridiculously uncomfortable.

Air Conditioning System

I have a Denso compressor and receiver dryer on the way. I think it’s a fine thing to approach this now rather than next spring as the temperatures are starting to rise. I expect this will be up to a thousand dollar job to have done. I’m a driver not so much a mechanic, I have to admit. And even then, no guarantees there won’t be a leak some other place. Nature of the beast…

Photos From Cars and Coffee

Photos from the cars and coffee were posted—there were some very sweet rides on display. That the Lorelei was chosen as Sweetest Import is a testament to the appeal of the Celica AllTrac, for sure, because she sure wasn’t show ready! I was just intending on going down and meeting some car people.

https://www.formerinstants.com/Albums/C ... -Oct-2021/
 

alltracman78

Active member
If you're worried about rust you need to get an oil film INSIDE the frame rails and rear quarters.
And make sure you don't block the drain holes when you POR15.
 

Roreri

Active member
I see the truth of what you say--both in terms of getting some oil film into the areas that cannot be seen, and making sure that the drain holes are left open so moisture can escape. Do you have a preferred product and application technique for the oil film inside the frame rails and rear quarters?

The main thing is I want to prevent rust. I could go with a spray on oil based coating, or apply the POR15--or the POR15 and then an oil based coating.

One issue I see is that I'm not down to bare metal on a lot of parts of the undercarriage, and the POR15 system seems to like degreaser then metal etcher then POR 15. As you can see (in the picture a couple of posts ago taken after I rag applied some PB Blaster as an oil coating), the undercarriage is a mixed bag--some areas are unpainted, rusty metal, other areas the paint remains. I certainly don't want to make it worse by providing a coating that moisture can get behind and then destroy the underbody.

There's a variety of opinions about what the best approach is. I'm studying this some more before I proceed with anything, as I can always just refuse to drive it in the wet.
 

Roreri

Active member
AKTA01 Workshop Tire Valve Caps

Sometimes, it's about the little things. I ordered these laser engraved aluminum tire value caps for $15 from AKTA01 Workshop out of Europe. They're fun, and it's a subdued little JDM nod:

AKTA01 Tire Valve Caps Delivered.JPG
Toyota in the center.

Genuine Parts across the bottom. These are anything but genuine parts.

They read "Specter Off Road" across the top. I didn't really think about it until I had them in hand, so I did a search. That refers to Specter Off Road out of Chatsworth California. They serve the LandCruiser community with parts, and they probably have no clue, and the design might be ripped off from Aris Wibowo. JDM stuff is frequently goofy, recycled, ripped off, and repurposed, so whatever.
 

Roreri

Active member
Oil/Coolant Temp and Air/Fuel Ratio Gauges

I feel I finally have everything I need to set up these additional gauges in The Lorelei.

Gauge Equipment Assembled 26 Oct 2021.jpg
AutoExtrude dual gauge mount ($89.97)
AutoMeter two-channel oil and water temperature gauge ($186.89)
AutoMeter air/fuel ratio gauge ($201.66)
RacerX MR2 Oil Pressure Sender Adapter ($49.70)
AutoMeter 2282 1” to 1.25” inner diameter radiator hose adapter ($72.06)
AutoMeter 2252 sender to feed second temp to dual temp gauge ($45.46)
3 Amp fuses and fuse holders ($9.48)
20 Feet of 3/8” slit conduit ($14.58)

That comes to $669.80, shipping included on the parts. Now I just need to get it done.

I've figured out that the oil pressure switch (light object center of frame) is located under the front right corner of the intercooler:

Oil Pressure Switch.JPG
That will be where I put the RacerX Oil Pressure Sender Adapter, which will allow an AutoMeter 2252 sender to be placed in addition to the oil pressure switch. I am thinking that the radiator hose adapter can be spliced into the radiator hose next to the turbo. That will measure coolant coming from the engine block at near max temperature, and allow the sensor wires for both oil and coolant to travel along the same slit conduit for the most part.

Where is the best place to weld the bung for the air/fuel ratio sensor for the Gen2 3S-GTE? The instructions say "as close to the cylinder head as reasonably possible."
 

grip-addict

Active member
The wideband is for the human and not for the ecu, right? It doesn't matter as much. Cars used to/some still do get tuned with a wideband at the tailpipe, so anywhere on the down/midpipe is fine.
If you were choosing to do it and use the same location for a wideband that is fed to a computer some day, then the ideal location is within 18" of the head. You get the BEST results if it was between the turbo and the head (hell, best is one o2 per cyl) but repeated high heat cycles will shorten the sensor's life substantially.
Contrary to the advice I just gave, I have my wideband towards the bottom of the downpipe, and both the human and computer get the readings. It works great... I just had to mess with the Proportional values inside the Haltech to get it happy with the location.

Everything else sounds right.

/r
 

Roreri

Active member
Thanks for the crosscheck on my install plans!

Yes, that is correct--for the human. The air/fuel is not going to be hooked into the ECU or take voltage from the existing O2 sensor. It will just be there as a visual tool.

However, as you say, future plans might change. I might have a need for accurate data, so I'll seek to place it as close to the head on the downpipe as I can. I don't want to burn it up, either, but if I did place it between the head and the turbo, sensors can be replaced.

As a curiosity, what mixture do you like to run at? I have read--and the fuel-laden smell of The Lorelei's exhaust supports this--that the 3S-FTE likes to run rich.

Just glanced over this thread viewtopic.php?f=9&t=38336 which had people saying

"12.5-13.5 for cold engine idle and load
14.5-15.5 for idle, which ever is smoother on your set up(and more rich is a waste of gas)
14.5-15.5 cruise, any leaner and your heating up the engine and will be lacking torque
>10.5 in boost.

edit: 16-22 should only be seen under deceleration"


and

"I like to run a stock piston 3sgte with no leaner than 11:1, on my own car the leanest i gets is 10.7 or so...under no circumstance should the afr get leaner than 14.7:1 on this engine"

and

"Above 0psi (ie, making boost) you should NEVER be leaner than 12.5:1. Even 12:1 is risky. Doing so is just asking for a melted piston... and you will eventually."

In the end, the more I think about it, these are good gauges to mount. I was ambivalent about it, as I'm not really giving it the hard treatment, but having the information is useful.
 

grip-addict

Active member
The location for the factory narrowband is best and it'll survive a long time there. It's really stuff like 2-step that blows out a wideband.
Here's my target fuel table, I'm running a gen 3 motor (but that shouldn't matter too much).

edit -
Idling at /above stoich is fine for the most par. I'm not, but this isn't my daily and I don't care as much about fuel economy on this car. No leaner than 10.7 is SUPER rich though. Unnecessarily so, in my opinion.
 

Attachments

  • afr target.PNG
    afr target.PNG
    65.9 KB · Views: 702

Roreri

Active member
Okay, that's where I'll put it--near the factory wideband.

And that chart makes perfect sense and supports the comments I read. 14.5 to 13 for no boost, then 12 to 11.5 under boost which can go up to 15psi for The Lorelei if I enable high boost on the Blitz Twin that's installed. Thanks for the additional that idling above stoich isn't terrible. That'll help me avoid being alarmed unnecessarily.

I'll eyeball it and set it right. I do have a GenI Apexi S-AFC. Piggybacks have a bad reputation--probably because of stupidity and abuse. I can probably use it safely as I am old and conservative (very rarely do I go up above 5000rpm--so far) and my plan is to use it to make sure I'm running properly rich.

I wanted to make sure I had good instrumentation before I started exploring the boost controller. Been running the stock ~8psi so far.
 

grip-addict

Active member
Part of why there aren't as many of our cars around is that it was really easy to make more power when they first came out. After effects of the gentleman's agreement and all that I suppose? Probably more to it than that.
At any rate, I highly recommend a front mount if you're kicking around turning up the boost. You definitely have the fuel to support more boost, but high IAT's are the precursor to detonation. That'll kill an engine real quick-like.

And before someone catches me, I meant to say factory narrowband in the previous post. Sorry for the confusion :)
 

Roreri

Active member
Yeah what you’re saying is much of why I’m scratching my head about the previous owner’s thinking. Enabled fuel and boost to 15psi, stuck with TMIC. Clearly, not the best setup, but people do all kinda things and I don’t have any proof of this ST185’s previous life except suggestive mods and the fact that it’s run well and been dry for the 2600km I’ve owned it.

I also agree with your thought that the headroom in these 90s-era JDM platforms supported unwise tuning strategies for easy if short lived gains. I do occasionally do photo searches for Japanese GT-Fours—the badging on The Lorelei would make it a fairly easy spot if I came across a photo of it.

I can tell it’s hot from the heat waves pouring out of the vent, but as to IATs, I don’t have that instrumentation—thus my conservative approach thus far. Running 93 octane and not thrashing it. FMIC eventually, is the best as you say. I know I’m getting near the wife’s expenditure tolerance level for now. ;)

Good to have folks to sort this out with.

And thanks I glossed over the wideband error, I gotcha.
 

grip-addict

Active member
Happy to help as much as I can ! I just love talking cars. And messing with them. And fixing them. And swearing at them...
There's a product out there calles toyobd1 that can supposedly get you more info and let you see some of the data input channels: https://zf-scantools.com/index.php?rt=p ... uct_id=126

It's in stock from time to time..I haven't used it personally... bought it then gave it to a friend when I ended up going Haltech. There are some limitations based on the year of your ecu though. Probably worth digging into if you want to see what the ECU is doing.
I can tell you for sure though that the iat's gonna be real high though. I'm struggling to get mine down and it's all a matter of heatsoak for me. I probably just need to go with a cs hood since all that heat has no where to go with the factory hood. And the st205 intercooler seals very nicely against the factory st185 hood scoop...

You up for a hood tradesies ? You wouldn't have to tell the wife you had to buy it... Though you would probably want to repaint it to match the car ;)
 

underscore

Well-known member
Do you have a stock downpipe? Most of the aftermarket ones have a bung for a wideband already so if you've got one you might already be good to go there. If you don't, then some widebands have the option to output a narrowband signal that you can direct to the ECU. That allows you to use the spot the stock O2 sensor is using.
 

Roreri

Active member
I hear you grip-addict—me too. I’ve found this car has revived my interest in mechanical matters. I’ll look into that OBD scan tool. I took a look at this video and I can see it pulls some useful stuff indeed.

https://youtu.be/IXpRoPwYqSo

I better keep the hood! I have the same heat issues you do!

As far as rich or lean, I’ve been getting about 21mpg combined so far, most of it city. It’ll be interesting to see what I learn.

Underscore, I do have a stock downpipe, 90% certain. I’ll look into the possibility of using the factory O2 sensor plug. Would this allow me to run signal to ECU and gauge? If so it would constitute a replacement of the OEM O2 sensor.
 

Roreri

Active member
First off, I have a habit of parking next to cars and taking pictures of them and The Lorelei. I haven't been caught in the act yet, but it's a matter of time...

Roreri and Red Camaro 27 Oct 2021.JPG
I stopped by Brothers' Garage on the way home from work, expecting to talk to them and get an estimate and an appointment some time in the future.

One of the Brothers greeted me before I even re-introduced myself with a "Oh, you got the stuff?" remembering that I had to collect a couple of bits of gear before executing. They came out and we talked a bit. We got to talking about the turbo, and was I thinking about a larger turbo, and I said not until an FMIC, and a cold air intake, and a battery relocate--eventually. I don't do turbos and FMICs on the first date. Let's see how the gauge work goes.

A Supra owner waiting for his work to be done came out and admired The Lorelei, as did one of the mechanics--they don't see this breed too much. They thought the gauge mount was interesting--I got the impression they hadn't seen its like before:

https://autoextrude.com/collections/celica-st165

https://autoextrude.com/collections/celica-5th-gen

https://autoextrude.com/collections/cel ... gen-st-205

They are an option if you don't mind a little gauge cluster impingement and want to keep the dash space clean.

After looking at the picture of the gear and discussion of the mounting strategies while looking under the hood and in the cockpit one of the Brothers said that they could do it tomorrow in about four hours, and asked if could I leave it. So there it is:

Roreri at Brother's Garage.JPG
There was a goodly amount of quality JDM equipment in the bays, to be sure. The Lorelei would feel very at home, if it could feel.

I'm unsure exactly where they'll weld the bung for the O2 sensor feeding the air/fuel ratio monitor. I specified "on the downpipe as close to the head as possible," and acknowledged that the factory narrowband is up high and there isn't really a good place up top with the downpipe shield in the way. So, we'll see what comes of it.

I asked them to give the throttle body a good spraying down since they'll have the intercooler off. That might get after the low idle I've been seeing. Maybe not. But since they have to take the intercooler off to get to the oil pressure switch, it's a good chore for them to see to along the way.

As with all new relationships, this is a bit of recon by cash. I hope it works out well--they came well recommended. If they get it done, and done well, by tomorrow afternoon, and without expanding out the cost, I'll be well pleased.
 

underscore

Well-known member
Roreri":28exnjp3 said:
Underscore, I do have a stock downpipe, 90% certain. I’ll look into the possibility of using the factory O2 sensor plug. Would this allow me to run signal to ECU and gauge? If so it would constitute a replacement of the OEM O2 sensor.

I think it depends on whether or not your wideband supports it. I don't know if they can all do it, I just remember seeing it in the documentation for my first Innovate wideband that I bought many years ago and thinking that was a neat option.
 

Roreri

Active member
OIL/COOLANT TEMP AND AIR/FUEL RATIO GAUGES INSTALLED

The gauges are installed. I went ahead and had the wideband sensor installed in addition to the factory narrowband sensor, underscore. They welded the bung for the wideband sensor down low, which doesn't surprise. I'm not entirely sure what effect that might have on the reading. Probably minor.

Wideband Sensor Installed.JPG
The overall cost to get it all wired in was $588.50. It was a bit more than I wanted it to cost but they were quick about it and it's set up clean both in the cockpit and engine compartment. Overall project cost: $1258.30. I can see why so many owners get real handy with their cars. That's about it for a while, now.

The AutoMeter dual temp gauge operation was a little opaque at first. I had to squint and really read the instructions. But basically, you can display both channels at the same time.

Oil temp is channel one, measured from the access point that the oil pressure switch is located at. This is displayed in numbers at the center of the gauge, and the range is 100 to 340F. Coolant temp (measured at the hose leading to the engine block returning from the radiator) is channel two, and the range is currently set to 100 to 260 degrees Fahrenheit via the 30 LEDs. 0 LEDs is 100F or lower. 1 LED is 105F, then each LED after is 5 degrees. 15 LEDs is 175F, 30 LEDs is 260F--I expect never to get to 260F on coolant return! I can set an alarm, to warn me of excessive temperatures.

I can set it to a variety of ranges:

60 to 210F
100 to 260F
140 to 280F
100 to 240F
40 to 120C
60 to 140C
60 to 170C

The air-fuel ratio gauge is pretty straightforward--bar gauge around the outside for gross indicator rich to lean, and the digital reading in the center.

Gauges Installed 28 Oct 2021.JPG
This picture was taken before I set the channels and how they display. They were used to AEM equipment, so the AutoMeter logic threw them a little.

On the drive back home, I noticed it liked to hang out right at 14.8. I got wide open throttle and observed as low as 12.5:1 at 5000rpm and 8psi, which is not too far off the fuel table you showed me grip-addict. Your fuel map was showing 11.5:1 at the same performance band.

I just took it out on another test drive, to check the function of the gauges. Reviewing the video now...

5600rpm at 8psi 28 Oct 2021.JPG
10.8:1 air:fuel at 5600rpm and stock max psi boost, so in the neighborhood of 10 psi. That is slightly too rich, I believe, but in the neighborhood of your fuel table grip-addict.

Highest it got on the coolant temp at the return was 200F, and that as it was heat soaking at the cooldown lap. Highest it got on the oil temp was 195F, again, during the cooldown lap.

Very pleased in general.
 

underscore

Well-known member
That looks like roughly the spot where the aftermarket downpipes have the bung so your readings should be similar to everyone else's. Although that means it's after the cat (if it isn't gutted) which may skew the reading a bit?
 

Roreri

Active member
The cat is still there. I'm inclined to leave it there.

I drove it to work and back on the 29th. If I'm running without turbo in the 1750-2750rpm range--economy mode--it seems to like to read 14.7:1 to 15:1. It seems about right. If accurate, it's running leaner than your fuel map when not under boost, and richer when under boost. I suppose there are pros and cons to that situation. I'm getting 21.2 mpg composite (mostly city), so it's reasonably economical on fuel, though 93 octane isn't cheap these days.

When I reach the end of a trip of any length, coolant temp exiting the radiator back to the engine block tends to fluctuate back and forth between 185F to 205F, cyclically in accordance with the normal operation of the radiator fans and pump.

Oil temp hasn't got above 200F so far.

ADDITIONAL: I took it out to grab coffee this morning. I normally don't have the time to do this, but I took the time to observe the air:fuel ratio during cold start conditions. Like you'd expect, it revs a bit higher at 950rpm right from the get go. Air:fuel is in the 13s, slowly rising as rpms drop. It's not a sudden logic trip where it shifts out of cold start to normal idle conditions.

Before setting back, I decided that I would experiment with the Apexi S-AFC installed under the boost controller, the goal being to see whether I could set the mix to something like 14:1 under non boost conditions--slightly rich. The way the manual claims this functions, is like this:

"This unit takes the input air flow sensor signal and modifies the signal to show volumes of air which can be controlled by adjusting the RPM Specific Adjustment Volume on the front of the unit. The unit then translates the newly adjusted air volume amount to the corresponding air flow sensor signal and sends the information to the engine control unit. For example, the adjustment column is in the +15% position. If a 100% air flow signal input is being received at this point, the output from this unit will be 115% to the engine control unit allowing the injectors to spray fuel amounts for 115% air flow signal."

I upped the signal for the 800 and 2400 rpm bands, thinking that I might achieve my aim. From what I observed, it seemed like it would momentarily adjust the mix richer, then the ECU would fight it back to the internal fuel map. Perhaps it only really functions in Wide Open Throttle conditions, and I've already observed that the ECU is fine at controlling that and setting the mix properly rich under load. So I zeroed it out.

I then decided to test out the hi boost function of the Blitz Twin SBC. It seems to be performing just about right on your fuel map grip-addict.

Air:Fuel 11.5:1 at 3000rpm and 16psi slightly off load
Hi Boost Test 3000rpm at 16psi.JPG
Air:Fuel 10.6:1 at 4000rpm and 14psi under load
Hi Boost Test 4000rpm at 14psi.JPG
 
Top