RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Gert » Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:52 pm

alltracman78 wrote:Also, I just want to reiterate that running the RC hood with an air to air isn't helping at all. It shouldn't lower your FP, but it's raising your intake temps considerably. And the ECU can't tell because it only has a temp sensor at the AFM. Nothing after the turbo.

You're honestly probably better off with just an intake hose and no IC at all vs the TMIC. You'd probably have less heat soak. That hood is holding all the engine and intake heat into the IC.

Oh my, did I miss that??? I must read and look at pictures better.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:29 pm

I’ve known I wanted a FMIC for some time, or something better than the TMIC.

I ought to just get the stuff and do it. Is there a kit I can get that works well?
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby alltracman78 » Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:47 pm

I don't know of any kits off the top of my head. I've always ran an RC or an ST205 IC.

I would suggest you figure this problem out first, just in case you cause something else while installing.
Much more of a pain if you're tracking 2 different problems and don't know it.

Side note, I misread your title when I mentioned you have a built in fall 91 car. Yours is a built in 92 car. Same effective thing. Just my bumble.
Either way, you know you can jump TE2 and E1 and put the ECU in a more sensitive diagnostic mode, right? Probably won't tell you what's up with your fuel, but handy other times. You're supposed to drive it that way so it can run all the checks.

Also, I THINK I found a factory jumper for you. There's a guy in Fl that parts out Celicas. He's got a 93 GT that looks like has the correct jumper in it. His username on here is Mike92LX. If you're interested.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:27 pm

Understood. I'll probably end up going up to see Nick at NicSpeed in Denver and we'll work out a project for an FMIC.

Thank you for the reminder about the more sensitive diagnostic mode. I can give that a try sometime as well.

I tried to PM Mike92LX, but it came back no such user exists.

I took the Lorelei on a rather long ride yesterday from Colorado Springs Colorado to Laramie Wyoming--360 miles round trip up the 25 and across the 80 and back.

Because I have an afr and I know how to drive it, I kept it properly ratio-ed and was able to sustain 140kph (87mph) going uphill toward Laramie, and coming downhill back, afrs trended richer and higher speeds up to 160kph (99mph) were reachable for passing. On the steep climb from Denver to Colorado Springs, 120kph (75mph) was the rule--all of these are "fine" for driving, but of course any boost leaned the mixture out, and fuel pressures dropped. I had the feeling that this was a "pumping fuel uphill" issue or, more to the point, the motor wanted more flow pushing uphill than the pump wanted to deliver. In any case, it got me thinking that the fuel flow is the basis of the Lorelei's poor performance.

So, I'm out in the garage dropping the tank, having run most of the fuel out of it. I can look at the connections and see whether there's something apparent there, or replace the pump and see whether that corrects the issue. I've got the rally shield off and now I'm digging around for tips and tricks on dropping the tank and what to do with it once I've got it off.

EDIT: So far so good--all the steps are pretty straightforward in the BGB. There is no tank shield--the rally shield replaced the function of that, so I really shouldn't roll without that rally shield in place. The filler tube appears to be in good shape, but coated with a fine dusting of rust on the inside the tank section of tube. I suppose I can steel wool that and apply Ospho.

Dropping Fuel Tank Step 8 (Disconnect Fuel Lines).JPG

Allright, so here's my deal: (b) and (c) came off with the standard degree of hassle and reaching and twisting and pulling. And, happily, only a dribble of fuel. (a) is a different connector though. How do you like to disconnect that one? At the lower connection or higher up closer to the tank? Flare wrenches, I take it?

EDIT EDIT: CSAlltrac said this back in 2012--the search function is great on this board: "Pump will be pretty straight forward and self explanatory when you see it. As far as dropping the tank, get yourself some penne lube for the fuel hardline fittings and be sure to use line wrenches, 14mm and 19mm I believe."

So now to spray some PB Blaster on the connectors and let it sit for an hour or so!

EDIT EDIT EDIT: **** flare nuts. **** flare nuts right in the ***. :bangshead:

Got the wrenches on, but man that front nut sure didn't like the 14mm flare wrench I brought to the game. It didn't want to go even with PB Blaster having been working at it for a good while. I'm going to let it continue to soak for a while, because it looks seized up. Just to be certain sure, lefty loosey still applies on that 14mm nut, right? I should be trying to clench the two wrench handles together to get it loose?

14mm and 19mm Flare Wrenches on fuel hardline.JPG
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Tue Sep 06, 2022 4:53 pm

I got the tank off last night. That flare nut fought me every millimeter of the way. I chewed it up somewhat but the flare wrench will still go on it. I figure that if all goes well, it will not need to be taken off again for a decade or more.

D73CB7D0-53A9-4541-8A65-5FA05F98130C.jpeg

The filler pipe was in good shape, but the overfill flapper was hanging a bit loose—I don’t know whether that was by design or out of the norm. There was the standard surface rust on the section inside the tank that will clean off with steel wool.

The fuel pump assembly had similar surface rust—nothing egregious. I did note some rust at the electrical terminals on the fuel pump and considered it possible that these might be the cause of decreased voltage/voltage drop across the power circuit.

3C7369B4-8391-4818-9B4E-0DDBD294E596.jpeg

As the existing pump is 30 years old I am going to replace it with a new stock Denso unit. The existing pump was capable of providing sufficient flow—if the issue is not the fuel pressure regulator—as late as a couple of months ago, so a stock pump in good condition should solve the matter if it is in fact the fuel pump.

The fuel pump strainer was not disintegrated nor was it clogged.

I drained the three or so gallons remaining in the tank, and the fuel was not fouled. That said…I’ll put fresh fuel in the tank and run this drained stuff through my leaf blower and weed whacker, just out of general principle.

I mixed degreaser and hot water and gave the tank a rinse. The drainage had a scum of rust. After letting the tank dry (love Colorado for this) there was some rust in the tank which I banged out and poured out.

5029EC94-CE6E-4B8A-BBE6-E4F154D4CB19.jpeg

That’s just a little surface rust on the top of the tank. I’ll steel wool it, brush Ospho on it, and paint it flat black as a rust preventative.

The gaskets were in good shape all things considered. I couldn’t tell which one of the two on top were leaking fuel when the tank is very full—if I had to choose probably the bent pipe gasket. I gave them a solid rubdown with AT205 Reseal, which is a known restorer of old rubber and left them good and slathered in a Ziploc bag to steep.

If all goes well, I should have it all back together in a couple of hours.

Any thoughts? Should I get some gasket in a tube to reinforce/backstop the existing gaskets? Should I apply teflon tape to the fuel hardline flare nut threads and NOT cinch it down super tight and make a paint mark to be able to check if it’s vibrating loose?
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Tippo » Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:57 pm

That's the cleanest tank I've ever seen come out of an ST185. I would clean it all off and repaint while it's out. Then get a gasket kit from GT4-Play. iirc they have the bolts as well. Everything else looks like it's in great shape.
1992 SW20 MR2 Turbo 4th Gen 3SGTE Swap. Aquamarine Pearl. "Priscilla"
1992 ST185 Celica All-Trac Turbo 4th Gen 3SGTE Swap. Teal Metallic. "Lazarus"
1990 ST185 Cellica All-Trac Turbo. Grey Metallic. "Mirum"
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Wed Sep 07, 2022 1:51 pm

Yeah it is really clean, isn’t it?

I went ahead and ordered those gaskets—one for the fuel pump holder and one for the filler tube. You gotta love the shipping costs: 28 Pounds!

So, since I have some time I’ll go ahead and paint the tank. There was some rust on the inside. Is there anything I can do to treat the tank interior that I ought to do since it’s out?
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Tippo » Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:43 pm

Roreri wrote:Yeah it is really clean, isn’t it?

I went ahead and ordered those gaskets—one for the fuel pump holder and one for the filler tube. You gotta love the shipping costs: 28 Pounds!

So, since I have some time I’ll go ahead and paint the tank. There was some rust on the inside. Is there anything I can do to treat the tank interior that I ought to do since it’s out?


I just hot-water pressure washed mine out. Soap and then water to rinse it out. Once it was clean, I dried it out completely with a vacuum and time. Definitely don't use a sealer or anything if the tank is clean, that's a disaster waiting lol. For the outside, I treated mine with flex-seal rubber after a few coats of chassis paint. Did the trick for sure!
1992 SW20 MR2 Turbo 4th Gen 3SGTE Swap. Aquamarine Pearl. "Priscilla"
1992 ST185 Celica All-Trac Turbo 4th Gen 3SGTE Swap. Teal Metallic. "Lazarus"
1990 ST185 Cellica All-Trac Turbo. Grey Metallic. "Mirum"
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Wed Sep 07, 2022 9:07 pm

Right on! It’s hugely helpful to be in a dry climate for this. Once I get the rust dust out, it will dry clean and quick.

The gaskets are said to be arriving on the 12th so not such a long wait.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Thu Sep 08, 2022 3:27 pm

When I got the Lorelei, it had an interesting lug nut setup. Each wheel had four BBS hex headed lug nuts, and a special lock nut that required a key that didn't come with the car. I missed that in the inspection, as I was focusing on many other matters, but that's an important point in a pre-purchase inspection.

Anyway, when I changed out tires almost immediately after purchase (another aspect of inspection that I am now wiser on--they looked good but were not good), the locking lug nuts had to be removed forcibly. The shop replaced these with a random no-name lug nut.

Since then, one lug nut came loose and is now aside a road somewhere.

Wishing to regularize the lug nuts, I purchased a set of BBS steel lug nuts--these guys here: https://store.bbs-usa.com/collections/w ... t-sets-257

Here's the difference between the new lug nuts and what's on the Lorelei:

Lug Nut Weight Comparison.JPG

Clearly, the BBS lug nuts that came with the Lorelei were super lightweight models. The difference of 32 grams per lug nut adds up to 640 grams--1.4lbs of that sometimes overemphasized and legendary "unsprung weight. The previous owner thought it worth pursuing, obviously.

Maybe I'm a fool, but I went ahead and got a set of 20 ultra lightweight lug nuts from N75 Racing: https://n75motorsports.ca/products/ultr ... wheel-nuts

N75 Lug Nuts.JPG

All told, these weigh 270 grams, as compared to 1040 grams for the BBS steel lug nuts. 1.7 lbs difference. Will it make a difference? Maybe. Car gear is fairy dust and promises. Of course I'll let you all know how they work out.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:45 am

The fuel pump assembly and filler pipe gaskets arrived from GT4-Play, a whole weekend ahead of schedule!

I went and got a pack of stainless steel wire ties, a can of DupliColor Toyota 202 Black, and a pack of shrink wrap. My intent was to use the wire ties to secure the fuel pump to the fuel pump bracket, and to use the shrink wrap to add an additional layer of protection over the wires to the newly installed fuel pump. I planned to clean the tank and then paint it another layer of black.

Cleaning went well. The tank was as close to immaculate as I could expect from a thirty year old tank. I did however dump out almost a pound of rust from inside the tank (417 grams, or .92 lbs). The paint was in such good condition I felt it extraneous to add another layer of paint to the tank exterior.

The fuel pump was next. I cut the new rubber hose to length, installed it onto the bracket, placed the the clips onto the hose without releasing the tension on them, installed the new pump, attaching the new hose to the top pipe of the pump, then installed the rubber base and filter, installing the spring clip to keep the filter on, and then released the tension on the clips on the hose. I used the wire ties to secure the new fuel pump even more securely to the fuel pump bracket. I then re-attached the power cables after cleaning the leads again. The shrink wrap went unused—the wires I deemed in good enough condition without reinforcement. I set the new gasket to the top of the fuel pump assembly and re-attached the assembly to the fuel tank.

New Fuel Pump 9 SEP 2022.JPG

Clean Fuel Tank 9 Sep 2022.JPG

That tank is in damn near perfect condition--well, uh, and lighter too now that it's minus a pound of rust.

I inspected the old pump. I tapped the old pump’s fuel filter on my workbench and a fine dusting of rust fell out of it. I considered it entirely possible that the fuel filter might have been clogged, and impeding the flow of fuel. I'll hold onto this pump and check the flow rate sometime. It could be of use to some needful allTrac-er down the line--maybe even me!

Old Fuel Pump and Rust 9 Sep 2022.JPG

Heading back down to the garage after supper to lift the tank back up, secure it, and re-attach the lines and filler pipe. If I hurry I might be able to test my work tonight, or certainly tomorrow morning.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby alltracman78 » Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:22 am

DON'T USE TEFLON TAPE ON A FLARE FITTING.
OR ANYTHING EXCEPT METAL PIPE THREAD.

That pump is toast. I started wondering about rust in the tank. The pump is full of it inside.
If you had that much rust inside it may start rusting again. Keep it as full as possible.

Careful with plastic and gasoline. Gas is a solvent. Can dissolve plastic. You don't want that in your tank.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby alltracman78 » Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:34 am

The guy with the jumper is on FB on the 5th gen parts group. Mike Morris?

Wrenches only squeeze together in one direction. Depends which side of the fitting your facing. Whatever you're loosening should be rotating counterclockwise (unless it's LH thread, like on a turbo shaft).

DON'T RUN THAT GAS THROUGH YOUR 2 STROKE. IT'S FULL OF RUST AND 2 STROKE GAS (WITH OIL) LUBES THE ENGINE. You're going to be running rust all over the bearings and piston.

Gas is a solvent also goes for paint and rubber paint. May or may not dissolve it.

You may or may not be able to tighten that fitting enough. It's pretty beat up. Make sure you check it carefully.
If you CAREFULLY file it down a little you may be able to get a 13mm on it. IIRC a 1/2 is slightly smaller than a 13mm. If the 1/2 is bigger that may work better than the 13. Or 14.
Once you KNOW it's not leaking may be a good idea to cover it in grease so the bare metal doesn't corrode. Don't know how much it will in Colorado, but still.....

Sorry for the caps, had a few whiskeys tonight.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:37 am

The caps are fine--a good warning is a good warning. I asked, so I hoped for an answer. I wish I had a couple of belts of whiskey in me, after my evening's doings.

I got the tank wrestled back up, the fuel filler pipe re-attached--gotta love those little bolts in the back--and the fuel lines re-attached.

The flare nut for the hard line was a son of a bitch to get started, but get it started I did, through dint of not giving up.

Tomorrow I get some fuel and try it out.

I'll dispose of that dirty fuel.
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Re: RORERI: A JDM 1992 ST185H-BLMVZ

Postby Roreri » Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:24 am

Okay...long story short, the Lorelei's performance issue was not solved by installing a new fuel pump.

I got the hardline flare nut lashed down and it's solid. The flare nut is an embarrassment now and someday I ought to have it replaced, but it's secure.

I was hopeful, but...on the check ride I observed the same disturbing fuel pressure drop and lean conditions as before.

Further, I filled the tank to the click stop, and it leaked as before--the new gaskets did not solve that issue. Maybe it's the bent tube gasket--which I did not replace but only reconditioned with AT205 Reseal. I did figure out through putting in an initial 5 Gallons plus 13.4 Gallons at the local gas station that it's 18.4 Gallons to the click stop. My old procedure of adding 10 Gallons at 1/4 tank is probably the way to go.

When I got back, I did a voltage drop test and here's what I got:

Voltage Drop FP and B+ Jumped 10 Sep 2022.JPG

With FP and B+ jumped at the diagnostic box, I saw pretty severe voltage drop--2.375 volts on average across two different multimeters. I found this difficult to believe which is why I did it twice, but my observations bear it out: While driving, I never at any time see the rich conditions and power that was routine even a couple of months ago. Any time I attempt to go WOT and achieve boost, the mix goes lean and fuel pressure drops. I can, however, drive at vacuum or zero boost just fine. It's like I have my 1991 Celica ST all over again--only worse.

Voltage drop of 2.38 volts is verified or at least further evidenced by a check of the voltage at the terminals and the voltage in the pump circuit. 14.55 volts minus 12.17 volts equals 2.38 volts.

Voltage at Terminals and Voltage to Pump 10 Sep 2022.JPG

As bad as that is, the voltage drop with the fuel pump relay installed is horrific:

Voltage Drop Comparison Fuel Relay In 10 Sep 2022.JPG

Though the readings were not consistent between multimeters, they were taken at different times and under different conditions. Both are terrible and the observed driving performance is what you would expect: Awful. Like, turn around at the end of the block and come back home bad.

However, voltage drop is not the whole of the story, I believe. I rigged up a direct line with 14G stranded automotive wire from the battery terminals to the fuel pump harness in the rear compartment, and set up a switch on the line in the cabin. The pump draws 12.3 volts when switched on without the motor running, and 13.13 volts at idle. I didn't do a voltage drop test with this setup--tonight. It's basically like a kill switch. I turn the pump on, it pressurizes the system, I turn the motor over, and we're off. I can definitely hear the new pump whining away back there, what with the rear seats down. The original pump was much quieter or at a frequency my military grade hearing could not pick up.

I took the Lorelei on a check ride with this situation in place and performance was better. I still observed leaning out under boost, but I could achieve mild boost--2.8psi--at 14.5:1. Pushing more resulted in leaning out and fuel pressure dropping. I have been running the same test loop throughout all of this, and I live on a bitch of a hill--I was able to motor on up it, at least, when I've had difficulty finding the right throttle setting before.

So, my thoughts? The fuel pump is only part of the issue. I think one, I need to address the fuel pump wiring harness, and two, I need to investigate the fuel pressure regulator. Possibly, a new fuel relay might help. Hell, until I look into it, it might be the entirety of the issue!

Grounding was another possibility I was advised to check: I have checked grounding and while I have not visually inspected every ground wire strap, I've touched the multimeter to various points and combinations and every reading is within what I've read is correct.

The work continues...
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