Brake options

Suspension and other discussion

Brake options

Postby maroon_185 » Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:44 am

I was wondering just what all is out there for out cars brake wise. I was mainly curious about what is out there that will bolt right up or with little modification.

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Postby Gary » Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:07 am

From the top of my head,
ST185
Upgrade: Porterfield R4S pad, Goodridge SS line, TRD pad (discontinued), KVR slotted rotor, Motul fluid, etc...
Brake kit:
Wilwood kit from Rocketeer (need 17" rim)
ST205 caliper, front need modification, rear bolt on.

For ST205 front caliper, it will be easier if you machine the rotor off. Otherwise, you will need to make a custom bracket.
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Postby maroon_185 » Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:35 am

I was mainly looking for caliper upgrades, something that will work with my 16" rims, IMO 17" is too much mass to far away from the hub to rotate.
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Postby Griffin » Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:20 am

maroon_185 wrote:I was mainly looking for caliper upgrades, something that will work with my 16" rims, IMO 17" is too much mass to far away from the hub to rotate.


Not if you get the SSR Comps - they are super light.

anyways I went with the goodrige SS lines, slotted OEM rotors, and porterfield R4S pads and it was a HUGE improvement. I do want to go to the rocketeer kit though, as I would like to reduce the fade I get after a while if I'm pushing really hard though a long canyon run.


anyways I think the ST205 came with 16 inch wheels - so the ST205 brakes may be an option for you.
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Postby alltracman78 » Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:54 am

I've got ss lines, pads from UK (can't remember what brand), and drilled rears. It's definitly a huge improvement.
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Postby maroon_185 » Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:37 pm

Yeah I plan on getting slightly bigger vented disk and better pads, But what is a good front caliper replacement? I apologize for being kind of vauge but I just need to know what calipers will work good with our cars.

For example does
rotora
stoptech
brembo
or baer maek caliper replacements that fit with little to no modification.
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Postby CMS-GT4 » Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:55 pm

I am selling a good brake kit option. used the same parts as the rocketteer kit except I used 12" rotors, and a bracket needs to be fabricated.
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Postby roo » Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:28 am

Slotted or cross-driled rotors, Top Secret pads, and you can say goodbye to brake fade.
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Postby Griffin » Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:19 pm

roo wrote:Slotted or cross-driled rotors, Top Secret pads, and you can say goodbye to brake fade.


I bet ya a tank of gas Angeles crest says otherwise :wink:
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Postby Darth Boost » Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:07 am

Griffin wrote:
roo wrote:Slotted or cross-driled rotors, Top Secret pads, and you can say goodbye to brake fade.


I bet ya a tank of gas Angeles crest says otherwise :wink:


I'll second that bet. Stock brakes, no matter what components you have in there, are only good for ONE hard braking zone. I'm not talking autox here... I'm talking on a road course, where you're coming down from 100-ish MPH. Stock brakes are good for autox and driving around town, but canyons and road courses NEED bigger brakes. Not just caliper/ pad/ fluid/ line upgrades, but bigger rotors.
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Postby Gary » Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:18 am

^^^^
Yup....

But Chris, if you are planning to drive your car in Owasso, Ok, I think caliper/ pad/ fluid/ line upgrades will be your first step.
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Postby Griffin » Wed Sep 29, 2004 7:01 am

Darth Boost wrote:
Griffin wrote:
roo wrote:Slotted or cross-driled rotors, Top Secret pads, and you can say goodbye to brake fade.


I bet ya a tank of gas Angeles crest says otherwise :wink:


I'll second that bet. Stock brakes, no matter what components you have in there, are only good for ONE hard braking zone. I'm not talking autox here... I'm talking on a road course, where you're coming down from 100-ish MPH. Stock brakes are good for autox and driving around town, but canyons and road courses NEED bigger brakes. Not just caliper/ pad/ fluid/ line upgrades, but bigger rotors.


we see eye to eye on a lot of stuff :) Too late for me to appologize for that whole pissing match over the typo deal? :D
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Postby SBCelicaGT » Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:31 pm

There’s a lot of assumptions and guessing going on in this thread. First let’s define each function of each brake part:

Caliper: Transfers hydraulic force from the master cylinder to the brake pads. Braking torque is defined by the distance the caliper is from the center of the rotor, and by the force applied.
Brake Pads: Uses friction to turn rotational energy into heat.
Brake Rotors: Giant heat sink that dissipates heat generated from the pad/rotor contact

More terms defined at Stoptech’s website:

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/glo ... ry_all.htm

And take a look at their brake bedding FAQ:

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/bedinfaq.htm


There are 3 different kinds of brake fade:

1) Green fade. Means you did not properly bed the pads and the pads are gassing-out. Usually an issue for street pads; Race pads don’t have this issue.
2) Brake fluid boiling causing a mushy pedal.
3) Overheating the brake pad material that has been transferred to the rotor causing a slippery surface.

#2 and #3 are exactly why it’s important to purchase parts that meet your driving style.

It is extremely important to properly bed the pads and establish a layer of brake pad material onto the rotors. It’s this new surface that contacts the brake pads and keeps from having a “warped” rotor effect.

So what does this mean for the ST185? Do the ST185 brakes need more torque or more heat capacity? For those that drive hard and are experiencing brake fade, do you know why?

Granted my GT weighs about 400lbs less than an Alltrac so I have less mass to stop, but it really is amazing the difference a set of brake pads make.

I had run my 90 GT at Buttonwillow last October in NASA’s HPDE. The complete system was stock except for some cheap performance brake fluid (Valvoline synthetic), and some custom brake ducting for the front.

Towards the end of the 20 minute runs I noticed the brakes going a bit soft. I firmly believe this had to do with the overheating of the pad, and possibly boiling of the brake fluid.

Last month I ran in another NASA HPDE event but this time had a few changes. Namely I upgraded the rear drums to 92/93 spec disc brakes with Axxis Metalmaster pads, and on the front was using Hawk Black club race pads. The initial bite on these pads are incredible! Track temps were close to 90 degrees and without the brake ducting this time, and some ATE Superblue DOT 5 fluid, I did not have one bit of brake fade. In fact, at this point, my brakes out power my tires and really do not need to upgrade my braking system any more. The only changes I need to finish are the 92/93 spec rotors and calipers, and my SS braided brake hoses installation(something about 15 year old hoses on a race track does not rub me the right way). I got the parts; I just need to find a weekend to put them on.

Until I upgrade to race tires (RA-1, A032R, etc), I will not need to upgrade my pads any further. The brake torque is fine, and I see no need to change to a larger caliper, or larger rotors.

It’s easy to just throw parts at your car because somebody said it worked on another car. Bigger is not always better. And for cryin’ out loud, do not buy cross drilled rotors!
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Postby Griffin » Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:12 pm

Please consider:

I have slotted factory rotors, stainless steel lines, porterfield R4S pads, and I run Motul RBF 600 (freshly flushed). I have 235/40/17 A032R H compound tires mounted on SSR Competition rims (very light combo). My pads were bedded properly and are in excellent condition - I have no brake vibration at all and normal brake performance is excellent. BUT - under LONG periods of heavy braking (Angeles crest is about a 35-40 minute run of pure twisty happiness) I start to get some fade as heat builds up. The process is consistent and repeatable. My brake hardware is all new as of like 4000 miles ago and operating at peak efficiency. BUT - its just not enough brake for a long canyon run. Ducting would probably help but I don't have the free space under car for it. This is not an autocross event - we're talking 90 mph top speeds and some braking to as low as 25 mph on certain corner entries. Depending on where you are and the direction you are running the process can be almost 100% downhill for about a 30 minute stretch. I know my fluid isn't boiling, and I know my pads aren't having offgassing problems (slotted rotors). I also know my bed in was flawless.

So while I respect what you have learned at the track days please realize that some conditions are VERY different and really DO require a system with greater capacity. The alltrac is a heavy car and it has a 60/40 weight distribution which, especially on the downhill, places a LOT of load on the front brakes. Even with what you consider a "properly sized" braking system, you run into problems after a while. Under these conditions a "overkill" system is exactly what is called for - something that can dissipate so much heat that even with continuous use under severe conditions it can continue to function at peak efficiency.
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Postby SBCelicaGT » Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:41 pm

Griffin wrote:Please consider:

I have slotted factory rotors, stainless steel lines, porterfield R4S pads, and I run Motul RBF 600 (freshly flushed). I have 235/40/17 A032R H compound tires mounted on SSR Competition rims (very light combo). My pads were bedded properly and are in excellent condition -


Point taken. A032R tires are quite heavy actually, though your wheels might be light.

I have no brake vibration at all and normal brake performance is excellent. BUT - under LONG periods of heavy braking (Angeles crest is about a 35-40 minute run of pure twisty happiness) I start to get some fade as heat builds up.


Is this all downhill so are you constantly dragging your brakes? If you find yourself "racing" on the street like this, maybe you ought to swap out your pads for race pads. Try a set of Hawk Blue pads. A set of pads is cheaper than $1000 brake system upgrade.

The process is consistent and repeatable. My brake hardware is all new as of like 4000 miles ago and operating at peak efficiency. BUT - its just not enough brake for a long canyon run. Ducting would probably help but I don't have the free space under car for it. This is not an autocross event - we're talking 90 mph top speeds and some braking to as low as 25 mph on certain corner entries. Depending on where you are and the direction you are running the process can be almost 100% downhill for about a 30 minute stretch. I know my fluid isn't boiling, and I know my pads aren't having offgassing problems (slotted rotors). I also know my bed in was flawless.


Autocrossing is for pussies. :evil: :D

90 is pretty quick, but not THAT fast, and yes I see that you mentioned there was a lot of downhill driving. A bit too fast for the street, but I won't clutter this thread with that soapbox rant.

If you are indeed overheating your pads, which it sounds like, your options are:

1)better pads
2)better thermal capacity(thicker rotors)
3)better cooling.

Ideally, there would be OEM rotors and calipers that bolt up to our cars that utilize a thicker rotor for better thermal capacity and still allow the use of 15" wheels. Something like that would be as cheap as going to the local parts store. Unless you having trouble putting your foot down, you have no need for larger diameter rotors, but hey, it's all about marketing. Thicker rotors aren't quite as stylish as those swiss cheesed 12" monster rotors.

So while I respect what you have learned at the track days please realize that some conditions are VERY different and really DO require a system with greater capacity. The alltrac is a heavy car and it has a 60/40 weight distribution which, especially on the downhill, places a LOT of load on the front brakes.


Weight distribution has much less to do with the load on the front brakes than you think. At speed, the car's momentum is the predominant factor in brake loading. And considering the fact that the ST185 is a heavy car, I can appreciate your need for larger brakes.

Even with what you consider a "properly sized" braking system, you run into problems after a while. Under these conditions a "overkill" system is exactly what is called for - something that can dissipate so much heat that even with continuous use under severe conditions it can continue to function at peak efficiency.



To each his own. I just can't justify spending $1000 when I can solve brake fade with $120 race pads and some good brake fluid.
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