killer_siller
New member
i'm looking for the ignition section of the BGB for any coil on plug 3s-gte. specifically the ignition diagram.
coil on plug 3s-g(t)e info request
- Thread starter killer_siller
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You are looking for the caldina diagrams then I assume? You may have more luck on mr2oc as they delve into this stuff a little more but I think the consensus was that coil on plug was not a good idea especially for performance applications. The dissipation of heat is terrible and nothing reasonable has really proven better than the conventional setup.
killer_siller
New member
i believe the 3s-ge beams engines also had COP. i'm actually looking to use the ignitor setup to do COP on a 4a-ge 20v. i want to see what kind of a difference the ignition signaling is.
is that red top or black top? i was also interested in the coil on plug setup as it has way higher voltage through the spark, less of a chance for ign missfires and a better burn- let me know how that goes i think the ICM needs a matching "NE" signal from the distributor to work right.... i could be wrong.
killer_siller
New member
built2run":1l8d2i42 said:
that i'm aware of, blacktop.
i asked one of my instructors at De Anza Autotech about this COP idea and he tolled me that if the NE signal that our distributor sends matches the NE signal that the ICM on the black-top beams (altezza) engine recieves, then its just a matter of wiring it in if the ICM only needs the NE signal that is. maybe if i could find scan tool readings on the "rev 4" 3sge's ign. signals and see if they match.
killer_siller
New member
built2run":3615pdui said:
BEAUTIFUL! that's what i'm talking about! i was looking at the 4a-gze ignition stuffs because the DSM guys have had success wiring up their wasted-spark setup into a COP wasted-spark setup. anyway.
the even COOLER thing is that the engine i'm doing this all on (blacktop 20v 4a-ge) uses the 3s-gte ignitor/coil setup. what sells in peoria!
well waste fire ignition doesn't top coil on plug even if one uses 4 coils, the whole point of using one coil per cylinder is to get enough dwell on each coil to send a 80,000volt spark. and i do believe the ICM needs that one "G" signal too for identifying TDC compression on cylinder one to get the correct firing order. i think since there is the "G" signal and the "NE" signal comming out of the distributor there might be a way to mak those signals match the ones needed for C-O-P to work. and the hardware doesnt have to be brand-specific
pit_celica
Member
If you need a waste spark system, look at the EDIS4 module, it was use on Ford Escort engine and can be fit on any 4 cyl engine. No more distributor. I use this EDIS4 module to replace the stock COP system in my 3sgte gen4 ST215. Works very well. Take a look at it because coil-on-plug system means lot of money and wiring problems.
Sam
Sam
pit_celica
Member
Hi, this module is FORD OEM on escort and other models. The signals you need to use this module is a signal form a crank sensor (RPM sensor), 12V+ and ground. This module will use the the signal of the RPM sensor to create 2 signals for two separate coils (plug1&4 and 2&3). But if you want to controle the advance timing, you will need a new programmable ECU. Look at www.megasquirt.info for more information.
killer_siller
New member
the EDIS system is extremely popular for tossing stock ignition stuffs.
i wonder if MSD sells anything that can control the spark advance, etc. they sell upgraded wasted spark coil stuffs!
you can actually pick up aftermarket wheels for the crank angle sensor, too!
i bet you could run EDIS control and wire up DSM style to use the COP coils rather than the twin coils...i say this because i already have the coils.
i wonder if MSD sells anything that can control the spark advance, etc. they sell upgraded wasted spark coil stuffs!
you can actually pick up aftermarket wheels for the crank angle sensor, too!
i bet you could run EDIS control and wire up DSM style to use the COP coils rather than the twin coils...i say this because i already have the coils.
hey what part #'s are those coils you have, the 4-coil wasted spark setup is pretty damn good. so once again the oem ford EDIS will work with the existing distributor signals it will just have stock ignition curve? will i have to modify the distributor signals at all?- is there a write-up of some sort on the EDIS for the 3sgte, or do you guys have the info?
___Scott___
Active member
The EDIS module doesn't control ignition curve at all. It only does what it's told to do, and if you don't tell it what you want then it put's out a fixed timing. That fixed timing depends on where you mount the crank position sensor relaitve to the missing tooth on the 36-1 trigger wheel. Normally default spark timing is 10 degrees BTDC.
pit_celica
Member
Exactly.
If you want to have control on your ignition advance curve, you need a standalone management like Megasquirt or other and you need to wire the Edis to this standalone. You cannot use the Edis system with the stock ECU.
Hope it's help!
Sam
If you want to have control on your ignition advance curve, you need a standalone management like Megasquirt or other and you need to wire the Edis to this standalone. You cannot use the Edis system with the stock ECU.
Hope it's help!
Sam
hey! i might have found a good kit. its electromotive's XDI unit. i am not sure if its just for ignition but if it is then thats the one i will be going with and then i will wire in a COP/waste-spark using MSD COP coils. there is a made to fit crank wheel for a second gen 3sgte mr2 but i think it will be good for our cars too. i'm calling one of the distributors tomorrow.
polarmoment
New member
you could use a GM ICM to distribute the spark too. you would need a 7 tooth reluctor wheel mounted or machined to the crank pulley (6 even slots, and 1 slot 10* off, i forget the exact points).
the GM uses the reluctor to determine engine position to sctivate the correct coil, then uses an EST line into the module to allow the ECU to tell it when the spark happens. there's also a bypass line that, when held to ground, results in fixed 10*BTDC timing, but when held to 5V, allows the ECU to send a trigger signal to the EST line to control spark. the GM module has internal dwell control as well, so no dwell settings are necessary, it internally charges the coil and current limits it at 7.5A, resulting in about 200mJ of spark energy on a stock GM (or DSM, which would fit our plug wires) coil.
i'm seriously looking into this once i get my honda ECU tuned on the 3SGTE. the toyota ECU would need to retain the stock ignitor and an MSD tach adapter to generate the IGF signal, and would likely need to invert the signal from a negative-trigger 5V pulse to a positive-trigger 12V pulse. that's a pretty trivial circuit though.
i also had some schematics to convert to direct-fire using an MSD and a distributor circuit that enabled each cylinder's coil when it was its turn to fire. i've got stacks of ignition coils lying around, of pretty much every type. i need to find a way to use em
the GM uses the reluctor to determine engine position to sctivate the correct coil, then uses an EST line into the module to allow the ECU to tell it when the spark happens. there's also a bypass line that, when held to ground, results in fixed 10*BTDC timing, but when held to 5V, allows the ECU to send a trigger signal to the EST line to control spark. the GM module has internal dwell control as well, so no dwell settings are necessary, it internally charges the coil and current limits it at 7.5A, resulting in about 200mJ of spark energy on a stock GM (or DSM, which would fit our plug wires) coil.
i'm seriously looking into this once i get my honda ECU tuned on the 3SGTE. the toyota ECU would need to retain the stock ignitor and an MSD tach adapter to generate the IGF signal, and would likely need to invert the signal from a negative-trigger 5V pulse to a positive-trigger 12V pulse. that's a pretty trivial circuit though.
i also had some schematics to convert to direct-fire using an MSD and a distributor circuit that enabled each cylinder's coil when it was its turn to fire. i've got stacks of ignition coils lying around, of pretty much every type. i need to find a way to use em
well most toyota/lexus COP coils have the igniter/transister in the coil so IGT needs to be sent independently to each coil.... i doubt the stock DI signals can be set up to do this without some sort of module like the XDI... its waste-spark and later can be set up with COP coils like the DSM guys do. i just don't know if the XDI will still set timing based off of the knock sensor. i'd prefer that, its just safer.
polarmoment
New member
distributing the signal is actually pretty easy. a dual flipflop and a quad NOR logic gate can accomplish direct fire distribution, and a single flipflop would be all that's necessary for waste spark.
the knock retard is determined by the ECU and included in the IGT signal. any module that uses the IGT as a trigger will still retard ignition for knock.
the GM module uses the crank sensor to determine which coil needs to fire. the ECU sends it a generic IGT signal identical to what our stock ECU's output. the module itself divvies the signal out to the proper coil.
i don't know that i would use COP sticks with a waste spark module though. direct fire coils with internal ignitors are usually designed to have the full 2 engine revolutions to recharge for the next firing event. running them in waste spark would fire them twice as often as they're designed for and would likely result in them not fully charging. the DSM guys don't use direct fire coils, they use 300M/intrepid coils which are "dumb" coils. the stock power transistor and ECU still controls dwell for them.
i hope to have some time this winter to crawl under the car to see if it's possible to mount a VR sensor on the crank pulley for the GM module. they're cheap, easy to find and put out a helluva hot spark. some of the turbo buick guys run plug gaps as high as .044 at 25psi! the GM coils were used on buick's 900+HP methanol indycar engines.
the knock retard is determined by the ECU and included in the IGT signal. any module that uses the IGT as a trigger will still retard ignition for knock.
the GM module uses the crank sensor to determine which coil needs to fire. the ECU sends it a generic IGT signal identical to what our stock ECU's output. the module itself divvies the signal out to the proper coil.
i don't know that i would use COP sticks with a waste spark module though. direct fire coils with internal ignitors are usually designed to have the full 2 engine revolutions to recharge for the next firing event. running them in waste spark would fire them twice as often as they're designed for and would likely result in them not fully charging. the DSM guys don't use direct fire coils, they use 300M/intrepid coils which are "dumb" coils. the stock power transistor and ECU still controls dwell for them.
i hope to have some time this winter to crawl under the car to see if it's possible to mount a VR sensor on the crank pulley for the GM module. they're cheap, easy to find and put out a helluva hot spark. some of the turbo buick guys run plug gaps as high as .044 at 25psi! the GM coils were used on buick's 900+HP methanol indycar engines.