Tuning and Build help.

4rsnduction":3e3k1zvh said:

Just out of curiosity why not get an AEM ECU ?

Click to expand...

How about to start with: AEM discontinued their MR2/Celica 3SGTE EMS.

Add to that the 2.7 Hydra can do flex fuel, has better resolution, better idle control, built in wideband controller, better knock sensing and it's pretty clear to me which one I would choose.

I have similar plans for my own 3SGTE (custom 2.3 stroker using a 98-2002 5SFE block) build running a 6765 (wish it was a 6766) turbo with a custom top mount manifold. It's no small feat to get to your goals, but goals are there for a reason. I've had 400 and 500+ whp in my own car, and want to make more primarily as a showcase for KO Racing.

I know Trevor (tjdouble07) is tuning his car himself now, but I tuned his car for him when it was more modestly built (520 awhp).

Tips for tuning or learning to tune:
1. Save and save often. Never overwrite your map.
2. Ideally use a laptop with a serial port, though starting with 2.7, it is possible to avoid any corruption issues using a USB to serial adapter. That doesn't mean they aren't still flaky and can have communication issues.
3. If you do pay to have your first tune done that is probably best and then you can tweak from a known quantity that should be good. It's pretty hard to break a built motor off boost, so that's the place to start trying things. Play with the software and don't be afraid to ask questions, or try things and then reload your last map if it doesn't work out.
4. Try playing with programmable outputs and think of the possibilities.

With the Hydra, I'm the point of contact for customer service for the Alltrac and MR2 communities, so I get most of these types of questions via email or phone usually and will help up to a point: I won't tune your car over the phone.

Regarding JDM vs. USDM gen 2 engines: they are mechanically identical inside the longblock. Any difference in power is related to the octane of fuel, and boost level they are tuned to run stock, not some magical difference inside the engine.

XD i would however....If i add that to what i have i might as well keep going . I may decide to just sell this one eventually and pick up an alltrac....The thought of AWD interests me greatly

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i love my alltrac but miss my supra and my 90 gts
getting another supra this weekend

for me i dont really care for the awd portion of the car...i like it for how rare they are
main reason i got my alltrac was low miles(66k) and 100% bone stock...not to mention the great price lol

jensenni1":c77qetvt said:

klue":c77qetvt said:

jensenni1":c77qetvt said:

I thought that was rather obvious...

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If your asking for pointers then its not that obvious.

Its probably better if you just pay someone to do it properly on the dyno.

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Well i thought pointers was the reasons forums existed? i could probably figure it out on my own i was simple looking for a few tips or tricks for first timers. Its not like i was looking for a how-to on tuning, I know all software and hardware has quirks so it helps to know that when setting item A to the X value its usually best to not allow item C to go above Y value or w/e. Thats all

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I believe the point was that you need much more than some pointers, my friend.

You've got a lot of research to do. Don't bother with twin turbos. ESPECIALLY don't bother with CT-framed turbos. Do NOT do anything relating to "max overbore." This isn't a a big block chevy.

Big cams. Strong bottom end, built head, custom intake and exhaust manifolds, huge turbo.

If you want to get exotic, give a compound turbo setup a try.

But first, get your read on. For many hours.

KORacing":20l1ceuo said:

4rsnduction":20l1ceuo said:

Just out of curiosity why not get an AEM ECU ?

Click to expand...

How about to start with: AEM discontinued their MR2/Celica 3SGTE EMS.

Click to expand...

That's the worst news i've heard all day.

I can safely say the thing i hate the most about my turbo Miata is that damn Hydra. Followed closely by the $275 wideband sensors that Hydra requires.



[edit]

Before that post comes out sounding like an instigation, it's not meant to be, and i apologize if you took it that way, Kris. I haven't heard many bad things about it when used specifically on 3sgtes. Seems i'm part of a large portion of the Miata community that's driven batty by this thing, though.

jensenni1":3asbg6di said:

jun crankshaft

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Degrees and lift duration please

jensenni1":3asbg6di said:

eagle rods

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H Beam or X beam ?

jensenni1":3asbg6di said:

new valves

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Stock size or oversized ?

jensenni1":3asbg6di said:

stock pistons (if im not stupid they were rated at 650hp? so due to budget i neglected it...bad decision).

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Stock pistons....maybe a little over 350hp before you start gamble with your engine.
More power means more psi which means more heat....stock pistons dont like heat

jensenni1":3asbg6di said:

Then down the road when i have moneyz to take the car down and redo the engine in all aspects. New everything, complete cleaning and rebuild, the works. Thats where the goal of 650+ comes in. At that point id be having someone come tune it and traveling to a proper dyno.

Click to expand...

So am i correct in saying you didn't waste any time or money putting these parts into your engine, it just came like that.

KORacing":2k3mv26h said:

4rsnduction":2k3mv26h said:

Just out of curiosity why not get an AEM ECU ?

Click to expand...

How about to start with: AEM discontinued their MR2/Celica 3SGTE EMS.

Add to that the 2.7 Hydra can do flex fuel, has better resolution, better idle control, built in wideband controller, better knock sensing and it's pretty clear to me which one I would choose.

I have similar plans for my own 3SGTE (custom 2.3 stroker using a 98-2002 5SFE block) build running a 6765 (wish it was a 6766) turbo with a custom top mount manifold. It's no small feat to get to your goals, but goals are there for a reason. I've had 400 and 500+ whp in my own car, and want to make more primarily as a showcase for KO Racing.

I know Trevor (tjdouble07) is tuning his car himself now, but I tuned his car for him when it was more modestly built (520 awhp).

Tips for tuning or learning to tune:
1. Save and save often. Never overwrite your map.
2. Ideally use a laptop with a serial port, though starting with 2.7, it is possible to avoid any corruption issues using a USB to serial adapter. That doesn't mean they aren't still flaky and can have communication issues.
3. If you do pay to have your first tune done that is probably best and then you can tweak from a known quantity that should be good. It's pretty hard to break a built motor off boost, so that's the place to start trying things. Play with the software and don't be afraid to ask questions, or try things and then reload your last map if it doesn't work out.
4. Try playing with programmable outputs and think of the possibilities.

With the Hydra, I'm the point of contact for customer service for the Alltrac and MR2 communities, so I get most of these types of questions via email or phone usually and will help up to a point: I won't tune your car over the phone.

Regarding JDM vs. USDM gen 2 engines: they are mechanically identical inside the longblock. Any difference in power is related to the octane of fuel, and boost level they are tuned to run stock, not some magical difference inside the engine.

Click to expand...

now this is the man you want to talk to.. chris knows his shit when it comes to the hydra.. he flew out to california to tune my st165.. THANKS KRIS!!!

Kris is on Trac....lol.

That sucks about aem, bit we have had several aem units fail prematurely.
Just a thought.
-jr

concealer404":2vyu6myk said:

KORacing":2vyu6myk said:

4rsnduction":2vyu6myk said:

Just out of curiosity why not get an AEM ECU ?

Click to expand...

How about to start with: AEM discontinued their MR2/Celica 3SGTE EMS.

Click to expand...

That's the worst news i've heard all day.

I can safely say the thing i hate the most about my turbo Miata is that damn Hydra. Followed closely by the $275 wideband sensors that Hydra requires.

[edit]

Before that post comes out sounding like an instigation, it's not meant to be, and i apologize if you took it that way, Kris. I haven't heard many bad things about it when used specifically on 3sgtes. Seems i'm part of a large portion of the Miata community that's driven batty by this thing, though.

Click to expand...

I have been tuning Hydras since version 2.0, so depending on which one you have, I have probably encountered every issue you can think of, and am aware that there are/were many quirks and they can be frustrating to deal with, especially if you have to rely on someone else to do the tuning. There were definitely ECU related issues on many of the early ones (2.0-2.1), but with the new 2.7 I feel the ECU is 95% there to be THE premium option for anyone going to a standalone under $2k. ,An ECU, however, is only as good as the tune (and tuner) and if there are specific issues you have with the tune on it, they can probably be addressed assuming there isn't some mechanical or electrical issue outside of the tune.

I think Jeremy at Flyinmiata provides a guide to tuning it in yourself, but as many as I have tuned, and as much as I've learned over the past 8 years of tuning these, I can't see the end user arriving at the same tune without some serious time involved to figure out all the nuances of both the specific engine and the EMS.

I sell replacement NTK wideband sensors for $175 fyi. They are indeed more expensive sensors, but they are also more robust if properly installed (never install an O2 sensor pointing up into the exhaust, 10degrees above horizontal downward minimum please!). I've run them for 3-4 years with leaded race fuel used frequently without a problem installed next to the turbo in the downpipe -- where a Bosch LSU4.2 sensor will typically die in 6 months or less due to the extreme heat. The wideband sensor is only really necessary to have in the exhaust on the Hydra while tuning. If the tune is good, no wideband necessary for regular driving, or you can use the stock narrow band o2 for closed loop operation in the absence of the wideband (another thing you can't do with the AEM). I like to tune such that it runs pretty much identical with or without the o2 sensor present. I typically take several days to complete a tune as I don't typically settle for "close enough", and it's really not feasible to get cold start just right in one shot.

One little know fact of tuning is that 90% of the tune is off boost, and not at WOT. Many people focus on the WOT dyno pulls because that is the flashy part of tuning, and you get to see how much power your build makes, but really that is a small part of a complete tune. The goal should always be to run and drive like stock or better (usually better) and just have that extra 100, 200, or 500+hp on tap when you want it.

Well said

If you want 800+whp rating, then you probably need to re-evaluate alot of things...

First, you need to consider your block choice... A gen 1,2, and 3 block just wont cut it. They crack near the water pump area, and have an inferior casting alloy. Either go with a factory new block, a gen 4, or 98+ 5s for your block.

Secondly, your bottom end will need a little more than just eagle rods and stock pistons... Might I suggest either Crower or Pauter rods, and wiseco pistons. A fancy pants crank is not necessary... You MUST know what you are doing here... its highly adviseable to have your whole rotating assy fully electronically balanced and blueprinted...

Consider alternative fueling options like e85, its more widely available than race gas, and its cheaper. It has an equivalent AKI rating of 105 IIRC....

As nice as the Hydra EMS is, Might i suggest something more mainstream like a haltech, vipec, or motec? When you start talking about graduating to the 650awhp club there is alot of material that is not mainstream knowledge. So its advisable to switch to an EMS system that there is a broader marketplace for with high horsepower application. Please stay away from AEM v1 boxes... the QC on them is absolutely terrible...

For VE improvements (volumetric efficiency) the stock configuration starts systematically failing at the 350 awhp level. The misconception is that ve improvments actually give you more power. And this is wrong... They only serve to make developing power easier and at different RPM levels and lower boost levels. For example: the stock camshafts help to develop peak torque around the 3500 rpm range, but start to fall flat around the 7000 rpm level. When you increase power it is typical to also want more rpms. So, by switching to say 262 duration cams, peak torque might change to 4500 rpms and start falling flat closer to 9000. Other examples of VE improvers include intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, exhaust systems, head porting, and intake systems. If you incorrectly add a VE improver to a system that does not need it yet, you can actually hurt flow and develop lower power... A great example of this can be seen from people who port their gen 2 heads, and then subsequently develop less power. All of this means that your motor must harmonize all of its components together for your engine to develop your desired power goals.

The 3SGTE is not the 4g63 or the k20... there are NO more mainstream racing teams using this platform, and most of the mods you need to do to reach huge hp levels need to be done on your own...


The builds that actually come to fruition are the ones who have some sort of plan to finance, and create an end product. You must scrutinize every part and system of your motor, because at those power levels nearly everything needs some sort of upgrade. If your budget is only $5K you need to understand what your limitaions are at that point... Dudes like pat, and tj both have well over $50k into their cars... and they are among the few who have cracked the 800awhp barrier...

4rsnduction":38xsgq02 said:

Stock pistons....maybe a little over 350hp before you start gamble with your engine.
More power means more psi which means more heat....stock pistons dont like heat

Click to expand...

Stock pistons dont like detonation... has nothing really to do with heat... if you intercooler is doing its job, the heat is not an issue...

Hyper eutectic pistons are very brittle and as you know, brittle metals have a tendancy to shatter rather than to just flex...

You are correct though in that 350 is sort of the area where you begin gambling. I cannot remember the guys name, but there is a 3sgte owner somewhere who is reliably running 500whp on his. But this is a testament to exellent tuning, and lots of anti-knock measures.

Good reads. In glade i did.

Thanks for the reads guys I knew there was a lot going into it, good to hear some of the things that ill need to examine. In reply to the asking about duration and lift, I'm not sure ill see if I can't find the specs in my garage where my records are buried. The rods are eagle h beam and thanks for the heads up about those pistons ill make sure and switch them before anything gets done. What I meant by complete rebuild however is this, I know that one of the shops didn't do to well of a job, I learned this from noticing the intercooler was rewelded at a different angle and was useless because it didn't line up anywhere. I also noticed improper torque on a few of the bolts on my head and a few vaccuum lines where disconnected for no reason. When I confronted them they promptly gave me a 15% discount and refused to fix anything and told me to leave. So in all honesty I'm not quite trusting of the internals. For peace of mind I feel as if a full rebuild is my best option.

Find a proper engine shop, maybe one with experience building 3S engines
The good shops usually do EVERYTHING in house.
To do everything in house means you need all the big equipment and machines.......little shit box shops cant afford these so they out source to other places and this is where the shop can say "oh we didn't do that, were not responsible for any of these damages"
Any place that does everything in house will have prices slightly leaning towards the expensive side but its well worth the piece of mind.
My engine job was a flat cost of $4.6k which included labor, new genuine parts(all of them), machine use (cleaning, magnaflux ECT.) and a 5year warranty.

/\ that is a pretty good warranty for a performance engine, almost too good. even the pistons that i order from big companies because of the stress levels dont offer much of one either way.

was playing with a new app on my phone to find out that its offered on garrett's website

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/webadviser

not calling you out, but maybe down under thats the way they roll

-jr

If it sexually excites you i can take a picture of my receipt, its printed on there
5 year warranty party because the man who built the unit just so happened to own an MR2, partly because i paid an extra $200 to have it extended from 3 years to 5 years.
I got lots of pics

KORacing":1fiv7pkm said:

concealer404":1fiv7pkm said:

KORacing":1fiv7pkm said:

How about to start with: AEM discontinued their MR2/Celica 3SGTE EMS.

Click to expand...

That's the worst news i've heard all day.

I can safely say the thing i hate the most about my turbo Miata is that damn Hydra. Followed closely by the $275 wideband sensors that Hydra requires.

[edit]

Before that post comes out sounding like an instigation, it's not meant to be, and i apologize if you took it that way, Kris. I haven't heard many bad things about it when used specifically on 3sgtes. Seems i'm part of a large portion of the Miata community that's driven batty by this thing, though.

Click to expand...

I have been tuning Hydras since version 2.0, so depending on which one you have, I have probably encountered every issue you can think of, and am aware that there are/were many quirks and they can be frustrating to deal with, especially if you have to rely on someone else to do the tuning. There were definitely ECU related issues on many of the early ones (2.0-2.1), but with the new 2.7 I feel the ECU is 95% there to be THE premium option for anyone going to a standalone under $2k. ,An ECU, however, is only as good as the tune (and tuner) and if there are specific issues you have with the tune on it, they can probably be addressed assuming there isn't some mechanical or electrical issue outside of the tune.

I think Jeremy at Flyinmiata provides a guide to tuning it in yourself, but as many as I have tuned, and as much as I've learned over the past 8 years of tuning these, I can't see the end user arriving at the same tune without some serious time involved to figure out all the nuances of both the specific engine and the EMS.

I sell replacement NTK wideband sensors for $175 fyi. They are indeed more expensive sensors, but they are also more robust if properly installed (never install an O2 sensor pointing up into the exhaust, 10degrees above horizontal downward minimum please!). I've run them for 3-4 years with leaded race fuel used frequently without a problem installed next to the turbo in the downpipe -- where a Bosch LSU4.2 sensor will typically die in 6 months or less due to the extreme heat. The wideband sensor is only really necessary to have in the exhaust on the Hydra while tuning. If the tune is good, no wideband necessary for regular driving, or you can use the stock narrow band o2 for closed loop operation in the absence of the wideband (another thing you can't do with the AEM). I like to tune such that it runs pretty much identical with or without the o2 sensor present. I typically take several days to complete a tune as I don't typically settle for "close enough", and it's really not feasible to get cold start just right in one shot.

One little know fact of tuning is that 90% of the tune is off boost, and not at WOT. Many people focus on the WOT dyno pulls because that is the flashy part of tuning, and you get to see how much power your build makes, but really that is a small part of a complete tune. The goal should always be to run and drive like stock or better (usually better) and just have that extra 100, 200, or 500+hp on tap when you want it.

Click to expand...

Agreed on all points.

The problem is... my car runs ALL FM parts, and was actually tuned by Jeremy himself. Twice. (I have 2.5)

The whole thing has just left a sour taste in my mouth, and even though it may be irrational to carry over these experiences to the Celica, i'm not real big on the idea of trying Hydra again.

My apologies however, my situation isn't necessarily relevant to the conversation anymore, i apologize for the threadjack. Everyone seems to love what you've done with the Hydra, and the fact that you care enough to give these explanations in this thread shows that anyone who chooses it here would be well supported.