st185 body kit research and concepts (AT club homework)

Josh, looks like if you sand/trim on the top part of spats (the little overhang horizontal) right at the 1/4 & bumper edge & double side tape it, it will pull in the corner at the wheel arch at the same time...
Good luck...looks great
 

deecee

New member
CMS-GT4":6lqoi7ul said:
Since my video is related I'll post here too.
This one is about body kits and the design aesthetics of the car. Get a snack and watch in full screen. Its a long video. http://youtu.be/9HxgCG08gJw
So I finally got around to watching your analysis. You could have asked for some better pics of the widebody guards as the pics showed a crap initial widening :p

Couple of things to note from my perspective:
1) bodykit design elements should flow with the original bio design of the car. For me and what I may/will do is ensure that the changes are subtle, and flow with the original design of the car. Hence the design of my guards is integrate with the factory widebody panels. I could have taken an easier road and just copied the original front wide arch and spaced it out by 25mm. But because the curves and transitions which make the widebody arches, are so subtle and shallow, it wasn't as easy to just make a copy and space it out. Same goes for taking the whole guard and putting a spacer on the mounting points to push it out. Creates gaps on the guard to door panel line (some may like that for cooling purposes/aesthetics - but that is another discussion point).

In reality, the car is actually very hard to design for, but not impossible. The way I see it, a number of aftermarket manufacturers have designed to suit the trends of the time and production process (taking into account the need to suit 95% of car panel fitment), but none have taken the subtle route. One should be able to say, that belongs on the car, not something that was stuck on the car.

2) panel lines should remain intact on the car to not disrupt the eye. Eg where a lip is added to the front bumper and front guard, a horizontal line is formed which breaks the panel line between the bumper and the guard. This also happens at the rear of the car as well. A number of modern cars have the guard mould around the headlights and use the top of the bumper as the horizontal line which is normally carried through. The vertical line break is the hardest thing to address and the easiest way to do this is have a black car to hide the panel lines/break. Quick mockup:

eg horizontal line breaks up the vertical panel gap
deecee_celica_bodykit_notes01.jpg


eg bumper line that creates horizontal line as part of the guard
honda-civic-vi-3d-14i-16v-66kw_4b9d2.jpg


there is a way to potentially address this, by matching the sill line.

3) fitting other car make elements to the Celica - sometimes works, most times doesn't. Better to actually design and fabricate something that is for the car vs hack something together. Looks cheap and nasty mostly.

4) very few side skirts have been integrated into the body under the quarter panel. On the car, there is a plastic panel stuck on there and someone just needs to remove it and make a body kit to fit the space - would integrate side skirts very easily into the curve of the car

5) fibreglass vs ABS plastic - no one is going to build an aluminium buck and plug for injection moulding parts for a 25+ year old car (original bio design prob dates back to 1987 considering a 2-3 year design to production cycle completion in 1989). Suffer with fibreglass or if you're lucky, maybe carbon or kevlar. Not worth a $$$ CNC mould for what would be a very limited production run. Face it, our cars are old and not popular except for enthusiasts - you won't get a lot of aftermarket stuff for our cars. We're lucky that small light engineering/motorsports companies actually bother to make products to meet very limited and bespoke demands.

6) rear bumper/spat/extension - always preferred the SW20 Tom's rear bumper. Has the sweep and angle that you mentioned. But see point 2 re panel line break if this was introduced.

7) adding skirts/lips to increase the body area to the eye making it lower and more modern. Challenge is the way the body curves under the car like a pebble or river stone. The undercut reduces the immediate visible body area and makes it seem smaller than it is from various angles. Dump the car on it's ass with 16" rims, coilovers/cut springs and be all hella-ugly, but really one just needs to give proportion to the overall car with the addition of wider wheels which fill the arch without raising the car. 17x8 with 40 section tyre and 20mm spacer on the back is the common solution as you know, anything else just isn't very appealing to the eye.

8) the intersection between the black of the front indicator lights to the top of the bumper annoys me. The rear lights and plint are an integrated housing which completes a shape, whereas at the front, the 'whole' of the front aesthetics is broken up by the lack of integration of the black front spoiler

visible here:
538382d1399705844-busco-celica-st-185-gt4-o-all-trac-91-92-93-781260146a2244608354b213351321l.jpg


thinking here: visible right angle on a curvy shape just doesn't work. Black car's hide this well
deecee_celica_bodykit_notes02.jpg


9) you asked me about if I was going to change the arch opening on my wide body guards, presumably to see whether decreasing the gap between wheel and arch would create a different aesthetic. I'm pretty sure I answered why, but I'll say it again. If I change front arches, then i have to change rear arches, then I start changing the overall design of the car, which is a hell lot of work and is not my plan. I'll add an addendum to those thoughts.

The image that we most associate with the ST185 GT-Four is that of the WRC rally machines which garnered success for Toyota in the early 90's. It is an image that is prevalent through our respective communities as the epitome of the car, especially the tarmac versions. In saying that, my approach is to enhance that image, not detract from it by adding aggressive elements which detract from the overall design of the car. By making significant changes to the body, then we diminish the a powerful and successful image and design in our minds, reducing the design to something that has been clearly altered and mucked about with.

The use of over-arches to change a the wheel well opening is an easy way to achieve this (for that particular example), but again, with such a curvy car with clear panel lines and a historical image in our minds, the addition of over-arches will ultimately detract from the design of the car and just look nasty. Again, I will allude to the ideal of making subtle enhancements and something that looks like it should belong, vs adding something that ultimately diminishes the overall design.

At the end of the day, there are a number of cars which are easier to design and build for than the GT-Four. Such a limited number of cars on the road adds to the uniqueness of the car but the possibilities are limited to those that would put in the effort for little in return, and that isn't good for business. Visual design is good but in practice, industrial design is harder, taking into account the need to work within the manufacturers production envelope (mounting points, OEM specification, design etc). I respect individuality and those that put into practice, their ideas and effort to achieve their vision, but at the end of the day, the need to fit in the envelope restricts the imagination. Far easier to build a tube frame chassis and design a body from scratch, incorporating the design ideas and vision of the creator than to invest so much effort into an already developed platform, albeit an older platform and small community.

This perspective is mine and what my friends have discussed for years with regards to my Celica. With them developing their own respective wide body kits and constant analysis and critique of the GT-Four over the years I have been building my car, along with a healthy love of cars and design, I think that my assessment is fair in the ideas and concepts it introduces and the challenges that are present with regards to ST18x chassis and GT-Four.

Take it as something to think about more than anything.

Cheers, Dave
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
Deecee,
It would have been nice to have more pics, but I haphazardly threw that together. I even missed a lot of points I meant to talk on, but I got tired even doing it and didn't have an notes. If you want to post more pics here, I would be happy to look at them. I will be doing follow up vids though once I start making my own bits.

I agree about the car being hard to design for, and most companies following the trends. Sadly the trends of the past 20 years did not fit the body design well. At least the trends chosen. I think some of the things designed towards the Supra, rx7, and some porsche models might had worked OK on the 185, but sadly the wrong things were chosen.

I see what you mean with the horizontal line, but after seeing the savage lip and the camaro lip, I think it isn't too difficult to work around. Not to mention the honda lip, seems to work well. The hard part is where it meets closer to the front of the bumper that creates a flow that works with the eye.
Some of the body kits that create a line above the bumper cover from the corner light to the fender are a good solution, sadly all the bumpers made that way are awful on the entire front area. They follow a tactic similar to the oem supra bumper.

There might be a material that will work for making a body kit. Seems there is a sheet of plastic you can buy that can be vacuum formed over a party. You might be able to fiberglass the original and then form the plastic over it then add your own tabs with a plastic welder. I was reading up on it the other day. Seems places in the US offer the services to do it. The materials are cheap, but the vacuum is expensive. Seems some use apply some heat to it to shape it over fenders and create plastic fenders.

I think its good to talk about and continue to chew on the idea with the group. Most will say leave it stock, but I think there is something here that can be done to improve the car. Of course ascetics are personal taste are none of us will agree totally with what we come up with. I want to see how yours ends up though because I liked the direction it was going.

I will likely not be messing with mine again until next spring. My air flow project and alignment and interior are my priority for the rest of the year. When I pick it up though, I will be starting with the front lip and doing a video on it and working my way to the back.
 

psipwrd

Member
I like the rear spats but have you thought about trimming them so they're not touching the muffler? Would be a shame if all that work and research resulted in blackened or even melted spats...

These stopped short but I like the way they compiment the lines on the bottom of the car.
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
I will likely have to trim it. I plan on making a fiberglass under shell before I do the spats. I also might be runnig another muffler by then and I don't want to trim anything until I know the shape I want to do.
 

soarer.jzz30

New member
So.. No one bats an eye huh. Cool. I'll just stop developing this and burn it.
 

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CMS-GT4

Active member
I already told you the lip looks good. Can't worry too much about lack of feedback here. Forum activity is somewhat down.
 

soarer.jzz30

New member
That's true. I know your opinion and thank you. I just think it's hypocritical of a community to want a clean nice aftermarket look, after 118 pages, and pretty much no R&D other than a few lips and 205 sides which everyone freaked out over. Someone makes something smooth and looks oem. Zero reaction.
 

CMS-GT4

Active member
In the end you can only do it for yourself. Very few will end up with body kits when it is all said and done, largely due to the work and uncertainty involved.

It might be hard to present you design without some proper wheels and lowering to make it complete. I have noticed that lowering the body line doesn't look as appealing without something more aggressive to set it off. Here is a quick PS to show what I mean.
 

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soarer.jzz30

New member
I'm gonna need a moment alone with that picture sir. And yes. Different wheels and some Coils are next on the list right now just saving up. Thanks for ps that pic. Looks amazing now!
 

pintoBC_3sgte

New member
soarer.jzz30":1lqjary5 said:
So.. No one bats an eye huh. Cool. I'll just stop developing this and burn it.
I like it! I want! Lol if your burning it I'll take it off your hands instead haha. Seriously though, great job .
 

ALLensTRAC

New member
You know I like what you're doing Will!
Keep it up! Even if people don't agree with what you're doing you are furthering development of the chassis and keeping it alive. That's what matters! I'd be right there with you if I wasn't stuck in metal repair.
 
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