165 occasionally not starting when hot

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165 occasionally not starting when hot

Postby DangerViking » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:30 pm

I don't usually drive my car much during the daytime, so it hasn't been much of an issue, but this has happened twice in the past two weeks and it's starting to get annoying.
Basically what happens is this: I drive the car normally (not pushing it *too* hard, but also not taking it too easy) for 5-10 miles, then stop for a short period - both times it was just the time it took me to run into a convenience store and come back out, so around 3-5 minutes - come back out and the car will crank fine but won't catch. Let it sit for 5 or 10 minutes with the hood popped, and then it starts right up.
The only thing that seems to be different from normal is that a) the car doesn't stay off for long, and b) it's hot out (that is, over about 105-110 degrees ambient temp) when it happens.

So.. what could cause this? I've checked the relays and fusible links in the main relay/fusebox, I've done the starter relay mod (even though that wouldn't really cause this most likely, figured it couldn't hurt to mention it), and I wasn't out of gas or anything silly like that :)

A friend suggested that some cars won't start when the water temp sensor is too hot... but then, the stock temp guage has been at "normal" range (pointing straight up) or lower both times this has happened. I'm guessing that there's something that just doesn't like to make the car start when it's hot out, but which part and how can I fix it?
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Postby ___Scott___ » Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:01 pm

This isn't really a fix, but open your hood and leave it up when you know you're going to be right back. That will prevent the sensors (I suspect the AFM Air Temp Sensor specifically) from heat soaking.
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Postby DangerViking » Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:57 pm

Would the AFM air temp sensor prevent it from starting when turning over? And if so, is it just because it's old, or do they all do that? I have a spare AFM, if replacing it would help
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Postby ___Scott___ » Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:10 pm

I can only speculate that your problem is related to the temp sensor in the AFM. That speculation is based on the behavior of mine when I leave it sitting for five minutes or so while I run into a store. Mine always starts, but sometimes is a little harder to start, and it runs like crap for roughly 30 seconds until the intake temp sensor drops closer to actual air temperature.

Any extra resistance in the wiring harness/connectors will cause the ECU to see a temperature that's hotter than it really is, so you could try unplugging/replugging the connector at the AFM a few times to make sure the electrical contacts are up to par. You could try the same thing at the ECU end for the same reason. There is some manufacturing variation among the thermistor curves, so swapping in your spare AFM may help too, but may not.

OR...

You could cut a big hole in the hood above the turbo to let some heat out :D :shock: :D
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Postby RedCelicaTRD » Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:35 pm

Or your starter contacts are on the way out and the heat is just a coincidence (sp)?
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Postby ___Scott___ » Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:44 pm

RedCelicaTRD wrote:Or your starter contacts are on the way out and the heat is just a coincidence (sp)?

I think you missed the part that says:
the car will crank fine

That rules out starter contacts.
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Postby DangerViking » Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:47 pm

___Scott___ wrote:You could cut a big hole in the hood above the turbo to let some heat out :D :shock: :D


I've wanted to for some time, would love a 185CS vent. Til then, though, I'll most likely do the ghetto washer spacer vent and hope that helps :) I'll try out the other AFM too, and check the connections for good measure. Good tips, thanks!
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Postby RedCelicaTRD » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:31 pm

___Scott___ wrote:
RedCelicaTRD wrote:Or your starter contacts are on the way out and the heat is just a coincidence (sp)?

I think you missed the part that says:
the car will crank fine

That rules out starter contacts.


:doh: Woooops. Maybe I'll learn how to read someday.....
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Postby Qlynxer » Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:42 pm

I use to have the same problem on my 165. Would have problems starting in hot weather after long drives. I always thought that it had somthing to do with the intense heat causing some of the wires to lose there conductivity. It went away after i did my engine swap.


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Famous starter problem....

Postby GMan » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:00 am

The wiring is old.
It could be a lot of things.

Start with the easy, battery, battery cables,
grounds, check the fuse box att to the battery.
The conections inside get crusty.

A LOT more info here.
"Famous Starter Problem"???
viewtopic.php?t=5694

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Postby DangerViking » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:07 pm

both battery cables and terminals have been replaced in the past 6 months, checked the grounds + ran two new ones about 6 months ago while troubleshooting another problem, the fuse box - battery connection is in relatively decent shape, and the famous starter problem is where the relay isn't passing through enough current to trip the starter solenoid and you add another relay inline, did that about a month ago :) But in that case, the starter wasn't cranking at all.
Now the starter's cranking, but it doesn't actually start the engine, and it's only when it's hot (i.e. I can start the car and drive it for 10 minutes and it runs great, then I turn it off and immediately try to start it again, and it just cranks without turning over)

I did the hood vent mod, spaced the rear of the hood up to lower underhood temps, same thing is still happening. Also checked the connection on the AFM and it's good, all the contacts are in good shape on both sides. I haven't tried swapping the AFM from the other car yet though, but would a high-reading AFM temp sensor not let the car start when it had been running fine a second before?
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Good luck

Postby GMan » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:47 am

You tried the simple. :shrug:
Good luck on the solution.
I hope you'll post your findings.

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Postby DangerViking » Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:59 am

bump to an incredibly old thread... car's still doing it. Haven't been driving it much lately (got a '98 subaru that I've been playing with, taking to the track, etc. and is slightly more reliable for a DD) but I'm planning a motor swap in the Subaru and need to get the AllTrac running in the meantime :) At least to tide me over til i get a built motor and make the alltrac my track car.

So, here's a recap:
Car won't start after I've driven it for a while - drove 3-4 miles today during midday and it started fine, drove 10 miles or so boosting up to around 12 psi or so and it wouldn't start.
After it cools off for maybe 15-20 minutes, it starts fine. It struggles a little bit at first, but still starts within half a second or so. Tried this twice today and it always starts after it cools back down. This leads me to believe that it's heat-related.
I just purchased a brand new water temp sensor and installed it, had the same issues, so there goes that idea
Replaced the battery today because the car's been sitting for so long and wouldn't start, swapped in a newer battery I had around and it started right up.
Replaced the 100A fusible link (boy was that a pain.. for the record, you remove the bottom of the fusebox, and use a screwdriver to pry the two little tabs toward the middle and it'll push down and out)
Last summer I did the mod to fix the "famous starter problem", wired a relay up to the battery and the old starter relay, and it now starts fine, just not when it's hot.
What else could be preventing the car from starting when it's hot? is there any sensor that would tell the ECU not to start if it's freaking out? Any sort of advice or pointers in areas to look at would be *greatly* appreciated :) I really want to get my alltrac back to (semi) reliable and drive it again, driving it around today I'm realizing how much I miss it.
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Postby DangerViking » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:06 am

Extra note: I checked all of my fuses and major connections (AFM, etc.) too, just thought I'd toss that in
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Postby 88st165 » Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:05 am

this also happens to me after i park the car for about 10min after driving it normally (not even boosting)... i will get in the car and start it and it will start up but it will run like shit and die out within a few seconds... when it does this i tap the throttle just enough to keep it running and after i drive a few feet the car will idle just like normal... i tried leaving the hood open just for shits and it didnt do it that time... im assuing at this moment that it has something to do with the heatsoaking like someone mentioned.... i might just try and find a way of isolating the afm from the heat and see if that helps at all...
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